NEVADA STATE MUSEUM & HISTORICAL SOCIETY LAS VEGAS, NEVADA THE LAS VEGAS I REMEMBER INTERVIEW WITH LARRY JOHNS Taken At KNPR Studios 5151 Boulder Highway Las Vegas, Nevada TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 2 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Today is the 29th of January, 1998. I'm Tim Anderson. We're at the studios of KNPR here in Las Vegas. And this is The Las Vegas I Remember, an oral history project. And if you will introduce yourself, sir. MR. JOHNS: My name is Larry Johns. MR. ANDERSON: And if we could just get started right from the beginning here about how your family came to live in Las Vegas. MR. JOHNS: My father was an educator. He was a school superintendent. And when World War II broke out, there was a mass exodus of teachers to the more lucrative positions with the government and the war effort. And he resigned and came to what was then the Las Vegas Airfield, when it first opened in August of 1942, as a civilian training instructor. He was past the age of enlisting in the military, so that's why he came. MR. ANDERSON: So this was 1941-'42? MR. JOHNS: August of 1942. MR. ANDERSON: August '42, so that's about seven months after the war had been on. And you're how old at this time? MR. JOHNS: I was not born. MR. ANDERSON: Oh, you weren't born? MR. JOHNS: This is by history only. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 3 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. MR. JOHNS: I was born here in 1944 in Las Vegas, at the old Las Vegas Hospital. MR. ANDERSON: A couple of years later you came along. MR. JOHNS: A couple of years later. MR. ANDERSON: So you grew up, then, in the beginnings of the Cold War. MR. JOHNS: Absolutely. MR. ANDERSON: I think one of the really important parts about your contribution to this is to help me to flush out this Cold War consciousness. If you could, tell me a little bit about the fear of the Russians, the Rosenbergs, McCarthyism, and that kind of stuff. Just sort of set the stage for why we were in such a big hurry to get this bomb perfected. MR. JOHNS: Well, of course, my earliest recollections of anything that would relate to war would, of course, be the Korean war, which was winding down. We were aware of it, but, of course, here in Las Vegas, it was nothing like the stories of World War II when every family lost at least some close family member. I lost my uncle at the Battle of the Bulge, for example. I mean, he died a few days after, in fact, I was born. So Korea was something we were all aware of; it was in the newspapers. This was the first indication TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 4 to me as a small child of the fact that there was an agenda out there; it was Communist inspired. And of course, it was the Chinese. And of course, our war effort in Korea. So that spawned many things in my young childhood, and I was young, but things of which I was certainly aware. The McCarthy hearings that came, then the Rosenberg trial. As a small child, I remember vividly listening on the radio to the actual -- not the execution, but there were people that were obviously witnessing it. And I remember Julius and Ethel, turning the switch. Turning the switch, I remember that it seemed rather surprising that she was able to take something like five -- whatever they call them -- turning the switch on, and that she was able to endure more than her husband Julius. But it was really vivid in my memory listening to that live on the radio as a child. MR. ANDERSON: Did you understand why they were being executed? MR. JOHNS: Oh, sure. Absolutely. MR. ANDERSON: What did that mean to you? MR. JOHNS: Well, it was the culmination to me of this whole perception of treason. And of course, it was giving away of secrets associated with the atomic bomb. And of course, grew up very much mindful, even though I was not old enough to remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was certainly something of which I was aware, and the effort to TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 5 develop the bomb. So these were the people that epitomized treason, giving away secrets that related to this awesome weapon of which we were so proud as a nation because we had developed it. Of course, by then the Russians had it, and this made it even more important that we develop this wonderful mass weapon of destruction and that we have complete control over it, and to the exclusion of everyone else. Certainly the race with the Russians over developing more sophisticated nuclear weapons seemed, at least, to be very important. MR. ANDERSON: I remember my own mother, in the '60s, reading a book by J. Edgar Hoover called The Naked Communist. I don't know if you're familiar with it. But I look back on that now, and it becomes part and parcel of that whole time and how people felt. If you could sort of summarize for the people who are going to listen to this, then, what was the mood at that time and the -- I don't know, there seemed to be a sort of paranoia about the Russians. Of course, McCarthy had really whipped that up. If you could sort of summarize all of that in context to our relationship to the development of nuclear weapons. MR. JOHNS: Well, the book that I remember was Masters of Deceit, which was another of those tomes on the particular subject. And these were books that were designed, TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 6 for whatever reason, to make us very aware that there was this menace, this threat. And they call it a Cold War, and of course it was. And it was a term that was coined, and it was a term that was very meaningful. It was a paranoia of sorts, no question about it. It was this imminent peril, this imminent threat of invasion, of use of these atomic bombs or nuclear weapons to protect us. And there was this deep distrust of Communism, deep distrust and fear of the countries that epitomized that, primarily at that time, of course, the Soviet Union because they were so powerful. And it was manifested in so many different ways, whether it was the Rosenberg trial, whether it was McCarthy, whether it was J. Edgar Hoover, whether it was books that dealt with Communism and the threat. Later on, of course, The Manchurian Candidate came out, just a marvelous after-the-fact expose on why we were so afraid. The Chinese water tortures. I don't know, there's nothing to parallel it, of course. It almost looks at this time like it was phantoms. And the more you read about it, the more you are aware that the Russians were as concerned and afraid of us as we were of them. But at the time it was war without war. It was the imminent threat of it. I haven't mentioned this, but I attended North Ninth Street school as a small child. It's no longer a school, but it had opened, I think, in 1942. And we had the duck and TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 7 cover exercises, Bert the turtle, duck and cover. So even in the schools in the early '50s, we were being trained to get under the desk. If there wasn't time, you know, or whatever, we were to get under the desk and cover ourselves and wait for the roof to fall in from the bombs, or go out on the playground and lay down in a particular way, with your head down and your arm up over your head. So it was training for what was believed would be something that was imminent, that could happen at any time. And we were aware of that. And of course, along with that came the bomb shelters. No way to build a bomb shelter in Las Vegas because you can't break through the caliche, you'd have to use dynamite. I mean, people had difficulty just putting in swimming pools. But it was all part of that imminent threat, imminent peril of destruction. And of course, we knew that Hoover Dam was on the list of major targets, not Las Vegas, not the fledgling casino industry. But Hoover Dam was there and, gosh, if they misjudged by ten miles or 20 miles, it would land right here in Las Vegas, or they'll overdo it and drop three or four bombs and, sure enough, we'll get blown to kingdom come. So it was a very real thing. We grew up with it. We knew nothing else. As a child, basically, we knew nothing else. I mean, it's amazing to think that we have lived, literally born into the Cold TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 8 War. I mean, Truman made his Iron Curtain speech in what? '46? I was too young to remember that, but to have lived your entire life and then to finally see the collapse of the Soviet evil empire, as Ronald Reagan liked to call it. And I'm sorry that my father, for example, did not live long enough, and so many people didn't live long enough to see that we won. But, it's hard to describe beyond that. MR. ANDERSON: When you were doing these duck and cover routines -- I don't know how old you were -- but did this scare you? MR. JOHNS: No. MR. ANDERSON: It wasn't really real to you? MR. JOHNS: No, it was exciting. It was like the testing itself when it first began, and you could see the sky light you up in the early morning hours. Unreal. Surreal, I guess. Something that was there that was exciting and all, but you'd think, well, what would I do? It was something we'd talk about. What would we do if it did? Where would we go? Up into the mountains. We would pack up and head for the hills, get out of the urban areas. No, I can't say, because it was ever with us, but it was never really anything that was real. MR. ANDERSON: As a child. MR. JOHNS: As a child, sure. MR. ANDERSON: Now, I think these are your words. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 9 Out of that Cold War consciousness, No. 2b, if you could, characterize this time in American history for me and tell me why you thought it was that way. MR. JOHNS: Why it was easy to fan the flames of this? Are you talking about 2b? MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. MR. JOHNS: B2. MR. ANDERSON: You said it was the darkest -- MR. JOHNS: Oh, the darkest chapter. Well, I'm not sure there's any parallel in American history prior to this. Lincoln, of course, declared martial law and suspended the writ of habeas corpus. But that was during the Civil War, and that was necessary because of insurgent potential within the northern states. But other than that, this is an example where the government decides that they will continue with the secrecy of developing the bomb by continuing on into the Cold War era with the development of the bomb and concealing from the American people that this experiment was going to rain down radiation upon its own citizens, and that workers called to participate were going to be exposed to levels of radiation that could have long-term serious consequences. And I know of no parallel prior to that. What other experiments did we have where people were unknowingly asked to participate in something like this? And that's why I say, it kind of set the TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 10 stage, to me at least, for a pattern of secrecy, classification secrecy. Certainly in wartime, sure. But this is, to me, I think, it's the darkest chapter. And I think it's set the stage for the use of secrecy in all aspects of government, the right that the government can conceal from its own citizens whatever it chooses to conceal. And to me, and I've kind of studied American history, not made a special study of it, but I certainly think that I'm well versed in it, and I think that this is using the power of the government to conceal to keep up this nuclear investigation this whole era. That's what, to me, it represents. MR. ANDERSON: You almost said it, the darkest chapter. If you can go ahead and say it. MR. JOHNS: Well, I think it is, I think it's the darkest chapter in American history. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Specifically, how did the Cold War hysteria make it easier for the government to justify this do you think? And of course, now, what you've seen as a lawyer who has represented radiation victims and are privy to documents that sort of helped you to develop that thought? MR. JOHNS: Well, of course, we start with the idea that those who participated in the actual development of the bomb, people like the Rosenbergs are executed for giving away TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 11 the secrets. So now this sets the stage for the notion that everything associated with the development of nuclear weapons, and development of nuclear weapons on American soil where the radiation is going to be spread over American soil, and that was by design, could have been developed other places. But for economic reasons, because it would be here, it would be easier to conduct the tests here, you start with that premise that, well, anything associated with nuclear weapons and the development of nuclear weapons carries with it a penalty of electrocution. Now, when you start with that premise and making people mindful of the fact that this is how sacred this wonderful device is, and everybody that's associated with it bears this ultimate penalty, you've already got the attention of everybody that's involved in either working with it or being exposed to it. And you add to that Communism, McCarthyism, which although it petered out, of course, over time, nevertheless, it made its point that there are infiltrators between us. So patriotism and the willingness to sacrifice all, along with the threat of your very life in the electric chair if you don't, certainly sets this wonderful stage for fear. Fear and hysteria. So I think those are important things that made it easy to then carry on and make sure that people don't question it. Don't question it for fear that if they do, they will be suspected of being disloyal. And you've got a wonderful mind TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 12 set when you've accomplished that. And I'm sure that it took a lot of PR work to inculcate that sort of an attitude into a whole population, and it certainly was here in Las Vegas. MR. ANDERSON: Even more so. MR. JOHNS: Even more so and necessarily so. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. So boy, when you see these kids in the '60s dissenting -- MR. JOHNS: Oh, yes. MR. ANDERSON: -- their parents must have just thought, what in the hell is going on? MR. JOHNS: Not just their parents, but their older counterparts, such as myself, just the matter of a few years. You know, we like to be referred to as the Eisenhower generation or whatever because along with the -- certainly with this issue, we also had the one-car family moving to, gosh, a two-car family and a television set, maybe even two, in a period of enormous prosperity by comparison to what our parents, who were obviously Depression era, World War II people, could remember. So even the older individuals, like myself, I was obviously 18 by 1962, so along come these things, and it's really almost too late for my generation. It's better for the people that are 15, and 14, and 13 and may remember less. They really get into all of the startling things about the 1960s. So it's not just the parents, it's people that are TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 13 just enough older to have a different outlook. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, those who were already out of college and into the work force. MR. JOHNS: Right. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. MR. JOHNS: Or already so firmly entrenched in whatever views they had. You know, you can't really change people after they're 15, 16, 17 years old unless you really work at it. MR. ANDERSON: Unless they want to change. MR. JOHNS: Unless they want to change. And a lot of people did, of course. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. So you grow up, and you go to school and become a lawyer. How did you get involved with these radiation victims in the first place? MR. JOHNS: Well, my brother and I were in the district attorney's office and left the district attorney's office in 1970 with the changing of the guard, so to speak. It was elective, and a new district attorney came in, so we left and opened our practice in 1971, in January. And within a month or so, the Baneberry event, which occurred in December of 1970, on December 18th, so it was still fresh. It was still in the news. This was the test that closed the test site for testing from December 18, per an order from President Nixon, from December 18 in 1970 until testing was resumed in TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 14 May of 1971. So this is such an important event in the testing program that testing is suspended for fully six months. It was in the news. There was a blue ribbon panel investigating the venting of this Baneberry test. And the workers who were exposed, and there were a number of them, were very concerned. And one of the representatives of the workers, security guards, came into our office and asked us if we would be interested in, first of all, finding out what their radiation exposure levels were, and then second, seeking some sort of relief, filing a claim against the then Atomic Energy Commission for relief to prevent this from happening in the future. So that was in the spring of 1971 as these things were all still very fresh in everyone's mind and very much still in the press. MR. ANDERSON: So you're brand new in private practice and here comes one of the -- MR. JOHNS: Brand new in private practice. And this is a civil action. It's a federal tort claims action. It is, by any standards, about the most complicated type of tort claim that there can be because it involves the United States Government, number one; and two, it involves the sacred cow of the defense atomic energy industry, and that is the detonating and venting of a nuclear device. So I mean, this is on the very top level of secrecy classification and of importance to TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 15 the United States Government, the Atomic Energy Commission, and the Department of Defense because this is their number one weapon. This is their sacred cow. MR. ANDERSON: Was this a daunting task to you did you feel? I mean, you've just been in private practice a little while here and you're coming up against the biggest guns in the world. MR. JOHNS: Well, yes, but we thought because it was so highly publicized -- I mean, it would be like right now we can think in terms of, well, if the media is hot after Bill Clinton, the pressure from Paula Jones or something is such that we might be able to reason with them, discuss these things in a rational setting. So we thought, well, perhaps there's some sort of relief that can be worked out here. At least we can get radiation exposures and get access to some of the information so we can determine what they were exposed to and whether they have any grounds for being concerned. And of course, we were wrong. The government is perpetual in existence, or at least until there's a revolution, if there ever is. So that was a mistake and then, of course, the stone wall of obtaining information. Just naive, incredibly naive in retrospect to think that it would be an easy task. MR. ANDERSON: So what did this blue ribbon panel find? TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 16 MR. JOHNS: Well, interestingly, they addressed a number of issues, one of which was the causes of the vent; and that, needless to say, was very important, of course, because they did not want to have to admit that they made a mistake. I mean, if there's one thing that any government agency, and particularly the Atomic Energy Commission, they would not want to admit that they made a colossal blunder in allowing this underground nuclear test. And the thing was buried over 900 feet deep, so you don't want to make a 900-foot mistake. So first of all was to try to establish that they didn't make a mistake; and then second, well, even if they did make a mistake, there was no harm to anyone. And of course, they issued a very, very concise shortened version called the Baneberry Summary Report, which they gave to the press in May of 1971. That basically consisted of about ten percent, maybe, of the full report. Now it took us fully, oh, I think six or seven years, or at least four or five years to get the actual report, the unedited report. We had to go through court. We had to file motions. We still never got it all. They still classified certain things based upon the arguments that, well, if we tell you any more, someone will be able to figure out exactly what kind of a bomb it was. And I think that's nonsense, but nevertheless, it took us years. We finally got most of it. And of course, that information enabled us to prepare for and TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 17 present evidence at trial that we felt was rather convincing that they had made a mistake, period. I mean, even the Atomic Energy Commission with, at that time, 20 years of experience at the Nevada Test Site, not that long in underground nuclear tests, but certainly 20 years of testing devices that they do make mistakes, and, in fact, learned that one out of 13 of the underground tests does vent some amount of radiation. So it was a mistake that was repeated on a fairly regular frequency when you consider the number of tests that had been conducted. MR. ANDERSON: But Baneberry was a big vent. I mean, there was a cloud. Could you tell me about that? MR. JOHNS: Yes, well, the Baneberry looked an awful lot like an above-ground test. I think everything escaped out of the hole that could have, the fissure. It created fissures. And when you look at it, I mean, the cloud rose 8,000 feet above the desert floor. It had more of a hammer shape than the round mushroom shape. But other than that, it looked an awful lot like what a regular above-ground test would look like. And it rained down 3 million curies of radiation, which we understood was actually revised later to a much higher amount. In any event, a lot of radiation escaped from the test, and part of the cloud went over this base camp, and the rest of it went where it always goes, and that is up to eastern Nevada, southern Utah, and until it's dissipated, TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 18 wherever that is. In fact, I think this one went into Canada, so it actually violated a international treaty. They tried to suggest that it stopped at the Canada border, but I don't think that it was that loyal. MR. ANDERSON: Right. That's ludicrous. That's ludicrous. Oh, my gosh. Now, from what I heard from Troy Wade, he was saying that there was a particular type of clay found only in that north part of Yucca Flat that had an infinity for water -- MR. JOHNS: Right. MR. ANDERSON: -- that had water in it, and that is what caused the fissures. MR. JOHNS: It was montmorillonite. Montmorillonite clay. I remember that very well. And it was a formation. You use water in the drilling process anyways, which he may have explained, but they used an enormous amount of water and they couldn't figure out where it was going. Well, what it was doing, it was just being absorbed into the medium around the detonation point. So that by the time of the detonation, all of these millions of gallons, or whatever it was, of water that was introduced into the whole was sitting there in this clay medium that was water saturated, and this enhanced the seismic effect of it. And that's exactly what happened. It behaved as if it was a much more powerful device. And they knew this. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 19 They had conducted another test not too far from there in 1966, the name of which escapes me, but it was absolutely necessary. I could even find that. But they had actually done another test not far away where they had experienced the same problem to a lesser degree, and so they knew that this effect, this enhancement effect does occur in this water type of environment, water-saturated clay environment. And that came out in the trial. And we had two geologists, both from the University of Kansas -- which was selected because they have an excellent college of geology -- and they both came out. And one of them said, "My first year geology students would have appreciated that you've got problems." They had faults in the area that were projected to be right down to and very close to the shot point, And then the clay medium, and then of course, the radiation went right up one of those fault zones and then fissured out along something like 300 feet. It just spewed out of the ground. MR. ANDERSON: So the NEC should have known better? MR. JOHNS: Absolutely. Well, that's what they said. MR. ANDERSON: Tell me, just say that. MR. JOHNS: Yes, that's what they said. They said, "Of course, they should have known. My first year geology students would have appreciated that this was a very likely TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 20 occurrence that something like this could happen." MR. ANDERSON: You know, on Troy Wade's level, he says, "Well, as far as I know, we all did our jobs to the best of our abilities. There was no negligence on our part." And I think whatever negligence that took place was higher up than where he was. And he was only privy to the information that they gave him, and he was told, "Okay, shoot this shot and let's get it done." MR. JOHNS: Well, we have the minutes. I don't recall whether Troy was on the panel or not. MR. ANDERSON: He was not. He was out of town that day. MR. JOHNS: Oh, then he wasn't on the panel. But the minutes of the various panel meetings were ultimately made available to us. And they were in a hurry. This was the last day before the Christmas break. It was a Friday. It was December the 18th. They had had problems drilling this hole. They had problems completing the hole because of this water. They kept dumping water down there, and it kept collapsing in on it. So they just decided to proceed. And that wasn't really the worst of it. The worst of it was they decided to leave 900 people working in area 12, many of whom were sleeping in trailers in the area 12 camp, others of whom were changing shifts at 8:00 o'clock that morning, and the test went off at 7:30, 30 TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 21 minutes earlier. So they chose to leave people working in tunnels, and changing shifts, 900 people in close proximity to this, which was, in my view at least, even more negligent than not appreciating the geological potential effects of this device. And that's what caused the workers to be exposed. And the security guard sergeant had twice called in and asked permission to evacuate area 12, the evening before and during the night before this test, and they refused to do it. So it's not just the geology, it's leaving people where, in the event of something like this, they could be exposed. And then it was impossible to get the people out in time. It was like a Chinese fire drill that morning in area 12 camp. I mean, they turned on the siren and then they turned off the siren. The security guards, there were only 13 of them trying to evacuate 900 people out of this area. If they had been allowed even to proceed with the evacuation immediately, probably could have gotten most of the people out. The wires were crossed. Bad judgment was exercised. And they were found to be negligent. So when a federal judge determines, as the federal judge did in that case, that there were acts of negligence associated with the failure to timely evacuate the camp, et cetera, that's the end of that. And these people would not have been exposed but for the negligence of these officials. MR. ANDERSON: You've done so partly, but if you TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 22 could, give me a little bit of the case summary where you talked a little bit about Shields Warren, who he was and why he was so important, the text book leukemia cases, and then Judge Foley's ruling. MR. JOHNS: Well, Shields Warren was truly one of the great pioneers in radiation pathology. He graduated from Harvard medical school in 1924. He essentially devoted his life to the study of radiation effects. By 1940 -- and this is before there was even an atomic bomb -- he had published in the prestigious tome on pathology called the Archives of Pathology all of the known effects of radiation. And this is the radiation that, you know, like Madame Curie carrying around radium in small amounts, or the use of x-rays, everything that was known. So he was the man. He was before the bomb was developed. And during World War II, he was a lieutenant commander in the Navy. And after the detonation of the bombs -- in fact, before, the secretary of the Navy asked Shields Warren to head up a team of Navy doctors to be prepared to go into and study the effects of radiation upon the Japanese. And he was in Okinawa, as he told me, and I think as he testified, while MacArthur was aboard the Missouri getting the signatures on the peace document with the Japanese. And so he led a team of Navy doctors into Japan to study the effects of radiation, collaborating with the TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 23 Japanese physicians who were already there. This is after the devastating effects, and went from Hiroshima to Nagasaki and back, and then, needless to say, reported on that and wrote the first -- as I understood his testimony and believe this to be true -- the first paper in scientific journals on the early effects of radiation. And this was within -- I think it was within a year and a half, and predicted an outbreak of leukemia among the Japanese survivors, as turned out to be the case, of course. So this is like 1946 that he would have published that. Then in 1947 when the Atomic Energy Commission was formed, there was no Atomic Energy Commission, it was the Atomic Energy Act of 1946, Shields Warren, undoubtedly because of his superior knowledge and position in the field, was asked to be and became the first director of biology and medicine for the Atomic Energy Commission and held that position until 1952. And that included supervising radiation oversight for all AEC facilities; and those included, of course, Oak Ridge, Tennessee, where they had the plants, and of course, Hanford, Washington, and of course, the test sight. And there were others. MR. ANDERSON: So he's a very authoritative individual. MR. JOHNS: He was the man. He was the leading radiation expert in the world and published hundreds and TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 24 hundreds of papers over the course of his lifetime. MR. ANDERSON: So you filed a case against the government, and Shields Warren came and testified on behalf of the radiation victims. What did he say? MR. JOHNS: Right. Well, the reason we selected Dr. Warren is because by 1972 -- I told you the Baneberry happened in 1970 in December -- by June of 1972, one of the security guards, one of the 13 men, Harley Roberts, who had participated in the evacuation, and who, coincidentally, had received, even according to their records, the highest radiation exposure, was having blood problems. Initially they had fancy names for it, but it was clearly perceived to be a preleukemic condition. So in 1974 or late 1973, as Harley Roberts' condition progressed to what was referred to as frank leukemia, which means that you can no longer call it anything else, a certain number of cells, over 50 percent of these bone marrow white cells had become clearly mutated; this had become leukemic. We knew that we needed someone with particular expertise. And we were looking for the best man for the job to look into this, and Shields Warren's name was mentioned. And I called him up having no idea who I was talking to. He was at Harvard, one of their facilities back there, and he agreed to look at the case, and in fact, was on board before Harley Roberts died. He died on the 17th of April of 1974. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 25 And before he died, I had Shields Warren on board, and he wanted to see and did review the slides at autopsy of Harley Roberts. They were sent to him shortly after he died. So we had an expert in radiation pathology. We had an expert in leukemia. We had the man who had predicted the leukemia outbreak amongst the Japanese, which happened and has never been questioned since. We had the best. And he gave his opinion, from reviewing all of Mr. Roberts' medical records and the radiation exposure levels and everything there was, that the exposure to radiation at the time of Baneberry was the cause of his death three years and three and a half months later for a variety of reasons, every one of which was compelling. MR. ANDERSON: So when you sued, you sued on the behalf of how many people? MR. JOHNS: We sued initially on behalf of all of the security guards who were exposed. After Harley Roberts developed this preleukemic condition in 1972, and the government even sent him to their doctors at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, needless to say, the focus of the case changed completely. It changed from, gee, are these security guards worried about getting cancer or other effects to did Harley Roberts, the individual exposed to the highest levels, did his leukemia result from this exposure? And that became the focus of the case by 1974, certainly. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 26 And when we finally went to trial, in the meantime, there was a nonsecurity guard, who was an electrician at the test site, who also was exposed to a lesser extent as a worker up there, who also developed leukemia. So the focus of the trial was these two leukemias out of this group that both occurred within four years of the exposure. The other man died in 1974 also, on December the 10th. So, two people out of the exposed dying of leukemia, very similar leukemias, as a matter of fact, within four years of this exposure. So, the trial ended up being a trial of just the two cases. The others were held in abeyance pending a ruling in the case involving the two leukemia cases. MR. ANDERSON: Eventually, how many of these other persons that were exposed got sick and died? MR. JOHNS: Well, a number of them have died. After the decision that finally came out in 1985, it took five plus years to get a decision, and, of course, it was adverse. The judge found negligence. The judge did not find liability, which means find that their leukemias were caused. We ceased pursuing the investigation of the other cases. They were on hold. These people were not followed as they would have been otherwise, because if you don't prevail on the leukemia cases that were very, very strong, particularly Harley Roberts', and leukemia is known and has been known to be the predominant effect of radiation exposure, then you're not going to pursue TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 27 the other cases. And we didn't. MR. ANDERSON: Now, what did Shields Warren say about these cases as far as the likelihood of them happening? MR. JOHNS: Well, it was his opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, which is the standard in the law, that Harley Roberts' leukemia was caused by his exposure to radiation. And he was unable to make a determination in the other case for several reasons, one of which was he had not been carefully followed. He did have things that were indicative of an opinion that would have supported him. He had some things that were not. But he had not been carefully followed. And a particular pathologist like Shields Warren is meticulous in his investigation. And the other man was exposed to a lot of radiotherapy before certain diagnoses were made before his death, and it was not well studied. And it caused him concern, and he was unable to give a firm opinion one way or the other on it. He pointed out the pros, and he pointed out the cons. MR. ANDERSON: Now, Judge Foley, if you could, just tell us what his ruling was after this. MR. JOHNS: Well, as I say, he ruled the government was negligent in exposing these individuals. He came up with radiation levels, and all he did, he gave a one-paragraph memo to the government counsel and asked them to prepare findings. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 28 But all that he found in the initial finding was: I find that the government is negligent, I don't find causation. And the government then, it took them a year to prepare these elaborate findings of fact and conclusions of law, which he then signed a year or so later. I don't recall how many pages it was; it must have been 40 or 50 pages of findings. MR. ANDERSON: So, he didn't even write his own brief? MR. JOHNS: No, he did not. MR. ANDERSON: How did you feel about that? MR. JOHNS: I appealed that to the ninth circuit, and basically I said that he had rubber stamped the government's findings with only a couple of word changes and I was very distressed. I felt that we had tried this case over three months. We had presented a lot of evidence. And to turn it over to government counsel to prepare findings and conclusions that fit their version of the facts was not -- I didn't think it was appropriate. And we challenged it, and it was remanded. We also filed some other motions to amend it, and it was remanded for further findings by Judge Foley. The ultimate conclusion was that we lost. It took another eight years, I think; it was '93 before it was finally over. By that time, Harley Roberts' widow had died of old age. The other fellow's widow had died of old age. It was kind of an exercise in futility; TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 29 but nevertheless, it finally came to a conclusion 23 years after the fact, from 1970 through 1993 or maybe 1995. I don't even remember. I've lost track of time. MR. ANDERSON: 27 years. MR. JOHNS: Yeah. Oh, well, around 25 years. MR. ANDERSON: If you could give us a little summary of Three Mile Island, the Silkwood case, downwinders, and Baneberry and how they led to, finally, the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act, and sort of reiterate those because people won't hear my questions on the radio. MR. JOHNS: Well, the Baneberry case started in 1971, really the event in 1970. And we were preparing for trial, and the trial started in Baneberry in early 1979, January. In 1978, there were congressional hearings in Las Vegas, in Washington, D.C., and in Salt Lake City over downwinders' concerns. Because other attorneys working with people in Utah and northern Arizona, northern parts of Arizona, and eastern Nevada had certainly become aware that our case was going on and that we were investigating it, and that people in those downwind areas were being studied. They were concerned that their exposures had caused these clusters and outbreaks of leukemia and other things. That was active in 1978, and that was what precipitated these investigations and hearings. So they were following our case, and we were following their investigations. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 30 In early April, as our trial was actually winding down, the last few days of testimony, the Three Mile Island event occurred; that's April of 1979, and here's this reactor blowing up, you know, spewing out the radiation. So then all of a sudden, the question of the safety of our nuclear power industry is called into question. The only other major radiation-producing instrument other than testing -- the third, of course, being radiation being used in medical diagnostic procedures. So all of a sudden, we have this blowout in Three Mile Island, Pennsylvania, and concerns about that. So that happened at the tail end. And all of these things are happening at the same time. The downwinders are concerned. They're studying. They're filing their first claims. Our case is winding down, and then Three Mile Island, and then finally, to cap it all off, the Silkwood case comes to trial also in 1979, later in the year. And this, of course, is the Karen Silkwood who worked at the plutonium plant, Kerr-McGee plant in Oklahoma. And they have this very high-profile trial demonstrating that they were so lax in the guarding of plutonium, the most dangerous substance ever devised by the human mind. I mean, it's such an elaborate procedure just to manufacturer enough of it. And she's exposed, and she dies of leukemia. Well, actually she was killed before, but the testimony was that she was wedded to cancer as a result of the exposure. So that TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 31 goes to trial the same year. So you have all of these things happening. I mean, it's just public awareness at its best from all fronts. MR. ANDERSON: This must have been pretty heady for you. All of these things are happening one right after another, you're going wow. MR. JOHNS: Finally we got somebody's attention. They can't contain it underground. They're careless there. They're careless in the nuclear power industry. They're careless at the plutonium facility in Oklahoma. Negligence on every front. So needless to say, then the question becomes, well, is it time, maybe, for someone to look over your shoulder? Is the Nuclear Regulatory Commission doing a decent job? Is the AEC adequately policing itself? Certainly the nuclear power industry needs to be monitored more closely. Is this just good old boys watching good old boys, or does the public have a right to be concerned? Well, the public was concerned, so these things changed the whole landscape entirely. It was no longer possible to just pretend that we were living in a Cold War era where whatever they do is so secret and classified and wonderful and we're too stupid to even understand it. We may not understand how they build it, but we do know what happens when they build it wrong and it malfunctions. So all of this came to pass in 1979. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 32 And then of course, the radiation victims in the downwind area went to court, and they won. They went to court in 1982 with their trials, and ten of the test case plaintiffs, all of whom are dead, so it was their heirs, actually won, and nine of those were leukemias. So they won in 1984. And our decision came, I think, finally in 1985. But the court dramas had pretty well played out by that time. Ultimately the downwinders lost on appeal to the tenth circuit, and they lost because, finally, the courts recognized that the government knew what they were doing all along. They knew that there were risks, they just didn't bother to tell people. And they escaped responsibility on what's called discretionary function immunity, a fancy legal term that means that if the government elects to place people at risk for national security reasons, or for any other reason that, in their view, overrides the rights of an individual, then the individual has to yield to the overall good. And it was perceived that they knew what was going on. They knew people were going to be sacrificed; therefore, they made an informed decision that people would have to sacrifice their lives if necessary. And you can't sue the government where they make these choices, and so they ultimately lost. And Congress, in their infinite wisdom, was more embarrassed about this whole sad situation, not only involving TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 33 the test site workers who lost in court, the downwinders who lost in court -- I've not mentioned the uranium miners who actually went into the mines, many of whom were native Americans that didn't even read English that were sacrificed in getting the uranium out so that they could process it into the usable forms of plutonium. Congress was embarrassed and ashamed and apologized and enacted this Radiation Exposure Compensation Act which allowed some form of relief for certain categories of victims. And that's what they were, victims. It included test site workers, it included uranium miners, and included these downwinders. And they set up a $2 million fund to apologize and pay them for mistakes that Congress recognized had been made. So that's the only good thing that came of it, of course, and hopefully a little more oversight, so that we'll never have anything like this happen again. MR. ANDERSON: That is such an amazing story. That whole time, that is such an amazing story when you see how all that took place and took shape. I wanted to check one thing with you here. Hal Curtis said, "When I heard about all those kids up in Utah and eastern, northeastern Nevada" -- did they have to have their thyroid glands removed? Was there something about that? Because he said, "Yeah, they had to have their throats cut 'cause they all had that thyroid." Was there a thyroid cancer too? MR. JOHNS: There was thyroid cancer. The fortunate TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 34 thing about thyroid cancer is it's treatable. MR. ANDERSON: Right, because it's isolated. MR. JOHNS: You know, iodine 131. There's several iodines: 131, 133, 134, 135. They collect in the thyroid gland. So the iodine was in the milk. The radioactive iodine was in the milk, and needless to say, it went to the thyroid glands. And I've never looked at the numbers of thyroidectomies, they call it, or whatever that were done, or the thyroid effects. But the human body did have, fortunately for probably for many of them, they did have a receptacle to collect the radioactive iodine and put it in one spot and make sure that's the organ that got primarily radiated. So, I have not looked at the numbers. MR. ANDERSON: But it was part of the case. Because that's the memory that Hal had, and I wanted to make sure it was right before I use it. So, there was some of that. Because what he says, he goes, "Yeah, when I heard about all them kids getting their throats cut because of their thyroid, I didn't feel like we were doing something very good for our country." Okay, good. Item 6, high level nuclear waste. Tell me how you think this darkest chapter has prepared Nevada to host a nuclear repository. MR. JOHNS: Prepared us to? TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 35 MR. ANDERSON: Well, psychologically. I mean, well, psychologically, for one thing. But I mean, hell, we've been host to all this other stuff, what are you griping about a nuclear repository for? This could be the safest thing you've ever had that's been nuclear. MR. JOHNS: Well, we know the difference now. I mean, we had no choice then. President Truman signed an official order in the fall of 1950 that the Nevada Test Site was his place of choice and that was all we knew about it until, I guess, the trucks -- and it was in the papers -- and there were trucks rolling out to the test site to start building Camp Desert Rock and all the rest of it. This time we have a choice. We've been exercising that right to dissent ever since the issue first came up. Are we prepared for it? Well, I'm not prepared for it. I'll never be prepared for it. If it comes, it will come over my objection and the objections of lots of other people. But, at least we're aware of it. And we've lodged our official protest, or at least the consensus from all the polls is that we do not want it. We do not trust the government to roll it in here in safe containers, to make the highways adequate. Nor do we believe that it will be safely placed and deposited forever in whatever containers and whatever they're planning to do with it. It'll be there. I believe that it's coming. From day one, when asked, I did not believe that we TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 36 could stop it, and I still don't. MR. ANDERSON: That's unfortunate. Your personal reflections about this darkest chapter in American history, as you call it. If you could, sort of describe your deep personal feelings about the government and how all of this worked out. MR. JOHNS: Well, betrayal. You have to understand that I was very super patriotic. That's the way I was raised. My father taught American history for the last 24 years of his teaching career, until he retired, and he was a super patriot. And of course, I don't like to have to take issue with my government, never did. Unfortunately, the attitude that we confronted was not one of candor, was not one of concern, was not one of compassion, was not one of reason. It was emotionally motivated, take no prisoners approach to a difficult legal issue. From the beginning to the very end, arrogance. And more than anything, I think, even to this day, even after the congressional apology, the same attitude of we did no wrong; we admit no wrong; we feel no concern. And I'm not speaking of the government per se, but I'm speaking of the Department of Energy and those that represented the Department of Energy throughout this entire experience. I can have nothing but a sense of betrayal and a sense of disgust that TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 37 this is the attitude of public servants. They are public servants in the last analysis. And the reason they're having the problem, I think, even to this day, in dealing with nuclear issues, in dealing with the repository and everything else is because it's still there. They sense that they're going to win the issue on the repository; they're going to win by force, by fiat, pure and simple, and it's not a matter of anything else. So having dealt with this arrogance for so many years, betrayal is bad enough, but compound it with this attitude problem that is, unfortunately, something that even the Internal Revenue Service is now trying it. They think they're going to be able to take people to a seminar in a weekend and train them to start treating the American people with a little bit of respect. Hopefully, it will happen, but it's not going to happen overnight. So that's how I feel about it. MR. ANDERSON: Need to take these folks down a peg or two. MR. JOHNS: Well, haven't been able to do it in the judicial system. MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, it takes a mass. MR. JOHNS: All it has done is convince them that they can't lose in the courts. Tobacco industry obviously felt the same way until it took this massive national effort TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 38 on the part of the states to realize what's going on. Unfortunately, this issue has been the little people against the big government trying to do it. That's what it's going to take. It's going to take change from within. It's going to take a national reassessment of the whole issue to change it. MR. ANDERSON: Troy Wade said that -- and I don't know if he was talking about you specifically or others who he thought jumped on what he called an ambulance-chasing type of bandwagon. He says, "I don't think the cancer statistics really illustrate or really show that these people were harmed by this stuff." He said it became sort of an ambulance-chasing event. How would you react to that? MR. JOHNS: Ambulance chasing? MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. MR. JOHNS: My goodness gracious. MR. ANDERSON: He said that lawyers and plaintiffs, real or imagined, jumped on this bandwagon to try to get the government and to try to get the AEC. He said it became an ambulance-chasing event. MR. JOHNS: Well, I don't know where Mr. Wade was in 1970. I don't know where Mr. Wade was when I visited Harley Roberts in the hospital at Loma Linda dying of leukemia, wanting to get up out of his bed and pull the tubes out of his arms, asking me to pursue this case. I don't know where he was in the spring of 1974. But believe me, it is a wrenching TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 39 experience to have someone dying of cancer, dying of leukemia, who firmly believed, as he did, from the minute he was ordered into this cloud in 1970, in December, without any protective clothing at all, asking him to go in there with a cloud surrounding him to try to save other people's lives by getting them out of there. I don't know where he was, but I know where I was. I was asked to do this. I did not solicit this. I was asked to do it from 1971 by aggrieved workers who had no cancers at all, who simply wanted information, wanted to know what they were exposed to, and why they were ordered into it. It wasn't their job. It should have been radiation safety monitors with equipment, not untrained security guards that were supposed to work the perimeter of these things and never even get in a radiation cloud and knew nothing about it. So I don't know where he was, but I know where I was throughout all of this. It was exactly the opposite. It was citizens, people asking lawyers. At least that's the way it was with me. That's the way it was with the downwinders, begging for help, aware of this problem and asking attorneys like Stewart Udall and Dale Haralson, successful attorneys who had other practices and other things in their lives, to investigate this and help them out. I mean, it isn't like these situations today. It was exactly the opposite, asking us to help, asking us to put in thousands, probably tens of TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 40 thousands of hours to pursue this. I don't know who he's talking about. I don't think he has a clue what he's talking about. This was an evolving process of asking lawyers for help, and lawyers giving hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars of their time pursuing these issues in these cases through the courts. And I was asked to pursue it by Harley Roberts literally on his death bed, and that's the reason I did it. And I don't regret it for a minute because he was right. I firmly believe he was right. And he firmly believed he was right. And talking about these statistics, the AEC itself has admitted -- they have admitted, at least in the case of the downwinders where there was studies, that there was an excess of leukemias. So he should reread the official position of the Atomic Energy Commission. There were leukemias and cancers caused by the radiation exposure and that's a fact. So, I'm outraged by the suggestion. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. The only thing we didn't talk about -- and I don't know why I don't have it on my notes here -- was Camp Desert Rock. I'm glad you mentioned it. MR. JOHNS: What do you want to talk about that for? MR. ANDERSON: Well, I think we talked about it at our first interview, that's why I'm surprised I didn't have it on my notes here. But Hal Curtis covered that a little bit for me. They had those soldiers out there. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 41 MR. JOHNS: Well, the soldier tests were all throughout. And of course, what I didn't mention to you is that the reason Shields Warren actually resigned in 1952 was because, as chairman of the division of biology and medicine, he did not approve of the military's desire to conduct these experiments with soldiers. I mean, it was foolish to have them marching toward the above-ground nuclear test as an exercise. You never know what the exposures are going to be. And he simply did not want to be around later when they said, well, now who approved this, even though the Department of Defense has the ultimate authority always. You know, they're going to do what they want and did. It wouldn't have mattered what he said. But he was just very uncomfortable with these exercises as they were called. And they began, of course, in the very early time. And by 1952, while he was still director of biology and medicine, he explained his concerns about it and resigned shortly thereafter. I think it was June or something of 1952 when he resigned. MR. ANDERSON: We had such tests right out here at the Nevada Test Site? MR. JOHNS: Oh, yeah, that's where they were. MR. ANDERSON: Can you give us a little bit of an overview of just what this exercise was and how it happened? MR. JOHNS: Well, remember, this is during the Korean conflict, so we're talking about 1952. We're talking about TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 42 the possible use of nuclear weapons in North Korea as probably the only way to effectively combat the hordes of Chinese troops that are pouring into North Korea. So I guess the notion was, well, what we need to determine is how we can use these two powerful instruments: One is the nuclear weapons, and the second is the ground troops. How close can they come? When do you send them in? You bomb and then you send the troops in immediately following the bombs; when would it be safe? Do you skirt around these gigantic nuclear devices? How do you orchestrate this new form of attack? So, the first thing they wanted to do, naturally, was to convince the troops that there was nothing to worry about. So that's why you see these films that talk about don't worry about radiation or whatever, you're perfectly safe. You've seen the films, I'm sure. And the second thing is the actual exercises themselves, with the troops seeing the bombs go off, getting up out of the trenches and marching forward. MR. ANDERSON: Right to ground zero? MR. JOHNS: Well, maybe not to ground zero. I mean, there's not going to be anybody to kill at ground zero. We found that out in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But they're going to use them in conjunction, presumably. They're marching toward ground zero to follow up on the destruction, to make sure that you've coordinated an effective assault. So they're used together. And the concern was, well, how close should TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 43 you get and why take the risk? If you want to decimate the entire corridor, do so, but don't unnecessarily expose the ground troops. But that's why they were doing it. Or if they were doing it for some other reason, it's certainly not clear to me. MR. ANDERSON: Wow, that's a mind-blower. That is just a mind-blower. One of the other things that Troy Wade did say to me that I found very interesting, he later went back to work in the Reagan administration with George Shultz and those guys, and he said that he is almost sure that this will happen, you know, with some of this nuclear material out there -- God knows who's gotten a hold of it -- one of these suitcase bombs that the Soviets can't account for. He says, "Yeah, sooner or later somebody like Qadhafi or one of those guys, it will happen. It will be Tel Aviv or something." He says it's probably going to happen. MR. JOHNS: As they say, once the genie comes out of the bottle, you can't put him back in. It will come back. Hiroshima and Nagasaki will not stand as the only uses of it. MR. ANDERSON: Judge Foley, what was his full name? MR. JOHNS: Roger D. Foley. MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Can you just say Judge Roger Foley? MR. JOHNS: Judge Roger Foley, sure. TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 44 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. Wow, this is very compelling stuff. (End of tape.) * * * * * ATTEST: The foregoing transcript of the interview was transcribed fully and accurately from the audio tape provided by KNPR Radio. Eunice G. Jones, Transcriptionist TRIPLE J STENO - 702-648-5584 3420 EDGEHILL WAY, NORTH LAS VEGAS, NEVADA 89030 ??