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On a forum that allows anon posting, why are you asking who I am? Do you hope that there is something about me that will help dismiss what I have said? People can check out the links and information I have supplied for themselves and make their own judgments. If you feel I quoted someone wrong, tell me who and how. My posts are for readers to get a more complete picture of your organization. I do not represent or work for anyone regarding this subject, nor am I benefiting financially. I am not Steve Hassan. I am not working for Kwak or anyone if that's what you think. I am a concerned citizen. Is that so hard to accept? Disagree with me if you wish but please explain why. Apparently you have not seen some of these criticisms even though Paul wants people to think this all old news. If that's the case, you should be thanking me for helping you see where more spin is needed. Paul and Robert have already started. Apparently since Jacob tricked Essau, the organization is now supposed to get a pass on the use of manipulation.
Dale –
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"claim to represent the truth," I am human and can be wrong. What did I write that was not true? Where have I claimed someone, particularly Hyung Jin, said something they did not say?
"those who are, in your eyes, deceitful"
Many former members attest to the use of deception by the Moon organization. Politicians who were caught up in the Moon crowning event in DC said they were duped by the organization. Did they tell Sen. Warner they intended to use the Dirksen building to crown SMM King? Sen. Warner said he was misled as others said also. There is a long time member who just posted below that he "left the movement for moral reasons- the Unification Church consistently employs unethical and manipulative practices, at all levels."
Dale –
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Allen Tate Wood, who was a leader during the formative years of the group in the USA, described a root lie he was taught in this essay. Bo Hi Pak told this same whopper to Robert Roland who testified to this also:
http://tinyurl.com/7hecxp9
[Miss Kim] knew that the messiah that I was following had been "a pure virgin 'til he was 40 years old". This is what she had taught us in America. [&] Miss Kim was trying to prepare me for what I might discover on my Asian trip, that "the pure virgin 'til he was 40" was just a little "heavenly deception" to tide me over until my commitment to "father and the movement" had transcended the narrow limits of my notions of honesty and integrity.
Dale –
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In this documentary a former member says she was asked to lie by members.
Cathryn Mazer: The name Rev. Moon never came up. I actually asked when I was first going with them to the site if they were the Unification Church and I was told, "No!"
Narrator: An FBI analyst wrote Moon's success "depends on very subtle deceptive tactics." Finally, Cathryn Mazer was told about Moon - he was her True Parent. It would be dangerous to contact her real parents. [&] She says the moonies encouraged her to lie to her mother on the phone - not telling where she really was.
CM: But it was just important whatever I told her that I did not tell her that I was involved with the Unification Church.
Interviewer: And they were perfectly happy for you to lie.
CM: Oh, I was encouraged to lie. I was asked to lie.
Dale –
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Damian, your own International president has talked about how you are to no longer "hide" behind the various front names and specifically named the FFWPU as a name you should quit hiding behind. Why didn't you correct the host when he labeled you the FFWPU? Why didn't either of you correct the notion that you are a branch of Christianity instead of going along with it? Even Hyung Jin has stated you are NOT a Christian movement. Why didn't you tell the host that you 'differ' from other groups because you believe SMM and his wife are perfect, the substantiation of God. And since they are one with G-d, the physical presence of G-d, they do not have to bow to God. Why didn't you tell the listeners that SMM is here to bring the judgment? Why not mention that Jesus is the old messiah and that he now serves SMM's dead son? I think you were saying this in the lingo, but why not be up front and say "we teach that SMM brings a greater love than anything Jesus came up with." Can you explain why SMM's "autobiography" does not mention his claim to be the Messiah and G-d's physical presence on earth and form in heaven? Don't you think that is kind of important for the reader to know?
Dale –
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Regarding 'manipulation'; for example, in the Old Testament, Jacob was extremely manipulative in his dealings with his elder brother Essau. Jacob tricked Essau to sell his birthright, and tricked his father to give his blessing. Nonetheless, there was a path for reconciliation, requiring spiritual growth, between the two brothers.
I have hope, as one acknowledging the legitimacy of spiritual paths, spiritual growth and religious traditions, for the resolution of such issues as 'manipulative behaviour' in myself and in communities of faith at large.
I have little confidence that those who are professedly 'secular' and unsympathetic to religion are capable of resolving such problems, which are, after all, pervasive in society. In the secular world, the self is number one; and the general approach to problem solving is to pass the buck and accuse others.
Basically, there is no role model for sacrificial love in the secular realm. In contrast, the religious world has archetypical models for spiritual growth along the lines of 'confession, sacrifice and redemption'. That is an essential meaning of Biblical stories.
Richard Eisenman –
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Thanks for your concerns about my sleeping habits but you need not worry, I sleep fine. On the information I have posted throughout this thread, I know it can difficult for members to admit the truth; it can be even tougher to face it. Hope you find the strength one day. Your pal, dale.
dale –
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I agree but I would like to discuss this so called afterlife a little more thank you
james –
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I was also raised a Unificationist and came to understand the truth of the movement only in my late teens. I was heartbroken that not only my parents were deceived but that they spent so much of their lives helping the church financially, while we did without. I believe Rev. Moon has some interesting ideas, but the church itself makes a mockery of religion and morality in how it manipulates people and doesn't follow the laws of countries it is in. It makes me sick that they seem to think they can buy influence anywhere.
Keiko –
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Well, I guess, I'm blessed enough to know the Divine Principle at young age. I just pray you do to people.
Ramel C. –
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Hi there LTL, . . . I can appreciate your concerns. I heard them in the 1970s and 80s. Happily, your worry is over something that has not existed since those decades, and even then, most such reports were vastly exaggerated. . . . By 1990 the MFT, the fundraising teams to which you refer, had been dissolved. Most of the church members then worked for the seafood and other businesses, receiving an ordinary salary and benefits. Others went back to school, and now have 'white collar' careers. Meanwhile families grew, and grandparents embraced their new son-and-daughter in laws. . . . Today, members own (or rent) their own homes, works at regular careers or run their own businesses. (I drive a delivery truck, and write pro-market science fiction.) . . . The STF teams to which you refer do local and international service projects, similar to the Peace Corps, plus outdoor challenge adventures and more. They were actually going to stop fundraising totally, and the young folks insisted on reliving such an experience, if only for a few months. (Also, it's a great way to meet diverse Americans, and witness many scenes in life.) The actual funds raised are enough to feed everyone.
Paul Carlson –
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LTL, what Paul is saying is that MFT isn't as big of a part of the cash and conditioning system as it was. 1990? But Paul, I thought In Jin was just now trying to end this conditioning system? I thought Jin-Joo Byrne joined the MFT in 2002 instead of going directly to college. Am I wrong? Here's some information on two member's stories about how they were exploited by the UC while working for their businesses. http://tinyurl.com/669bjum and http://tinyurl.com/3uyqncq
Dale –
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LTL, Don't worry about the cash flow though, the organization still rakes in the big bucks from its main source, Japan. There have been over 30,000 claims filed totaling over 1.3 billion dollars against the UC and its members for swindling there. http://tinyurl.com/3knxqhq Those figures are said to represent only a fraction of the real damages to the people of Japan. Paul, a source tells me that the largest selling and most trusted weekly in Japan, in a scathing report, said the UC has shipped out over 6 billion dollars from Japan. That is the money used to fund the world operations which lose money everywhere else on the planet.(Hyung Jin says that a former director of the KCIA now does the books in Korea and things are now better there) Paul, do you know the time frame of this 6 billion? I was told that the UC is frantic that they have been exposed in Japan again and are having hunger strikes in front of the publication until they retract their highly sourced article. Do you think the Moon followers will get violent like they did in Korea a few years ago? http://tinyurl.com/69awsbb
Dale –
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LTL, The GPA and other similar programs are largely self-sustaining. The kids who participate in them raise money chiefly to pay for their own and other program expenses and to pay for things like plane tickets to international service projects. The kids take financial responsibility to earn the money, maybe not such a bad idea for kids to do? I hear that the fundraising aspect of the program is about 1/3 of it; the rest of the program involving international service projects, witnessing, recreational activities and college prep. In so far as being a disciplined spiritual program with rules (like no dating) the GPA program has some similarities to the Mormon mission program, which program Steve Hassan started to attack in this NPR interview.
Richard Eisenman –
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Frank, or is it Dale? Maybe it's Zeke here with an urgent appeal to KNPR's administrator to stop the constant harrassment of all these personalities from the members of Moon's juggernaught. Willing to engage in open and fair discussion but unable to cope with the constant hammering from their incisive logic.
Frank Frivilous –
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Everybody. I don't care what side you are on, but lets keep it clean. Don't spoof someone else.
Richard Eisenman –
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Gee Dale, why don't you pull out your Bible and contemplate the following verses: Genesis 1:26: "God created man and woman in his own image." and John 8:44 "You are of your father the Devil". Get back to me when you've figured that one out.
Richard Eisenman –
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No Dale, I'm not saying that your father is the Devil and mine is not, by the way.
The point in Unification theology, which, by the way, is largely a commentary on the Old and New Testament, is that in the beginning, God created us in his image at which point we were one with God. But mankind fell and became one with 'the Devil'. And the subsequent goal of Providential history is for that relationship of oneness, a relationship of True Parental Love by God reciprocated by humankind to somehow be restored. You are assuming that the role of 'God and True Parent' is some sort of authoritarian dictator. But Unification thinking is that God is a 'True Parent' who wants to give everything to his children. A relationship of 'True Parent' and 'True Child' is not one of authoritarian and slave. Rather it is one of 'True Love' in which one lives for the sake of the other and vis versa.
Richard Eisenman –
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You cannot understand Rev and Mrs. Moon from an external, political, intellectual viewpoint. Heart is involved.
I just read a really moving book about a 'crazy' young man (whom most of the world has judged crazy by reading the newspapers, but you'd have to read the story to judge for yourself): 'Into the Wild' by Jon Krakauer. He quotes the author Annie Dillard and I found this quote apropos to this conversation: "There are no events but thoughts and the heart's hard turning., the heart's slow learning where to love and whom. The rest is merely gossip, and tales for other times"
Richard Eisenman –
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SMM's ego knows no bounds, he even says he is better than G-d. How do these quotes fit in the rationalizing metric? "&Heavenly Father will say, 'Reverend Moon is far better than me, the Heavenly Father.'" (Sun Myung Moon - Barrytown, New York July 31, 1974 Master Speaks) There's couple of translation of this next one but like everything SMM says, it all tracks back to the same unsubstantiated claims.
"In the Last Days, when God looks down and sees Reverend Moon bestowing blessing upon millions of people in place of God then He will say that Father(SMM) is even greater than G-d." (Sun Myung Moon - True Parents' Day is my True Son's Day - April 18, 1996)
Dale –
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An interesting exchange.
My friend Damien Anderson was an Internet pioneer, active on Usenet throughout the 1990s. A big topic was the UC/moonies, being far more widely controversial then. Those discussions are still archived, on about 65 densely-texted web pages. No surprise, we could look there and find the same accusations, virtually word for word. The defense has gotten much easier, though! With grandchildren, and now 'second generation' blessings and great-grandkids, the families of UC members are happily together. (Those lurid old cult rumors have no more pull.) . . . . Meanwhile, the worldwide good done by the church, and its many allies among liberal clergy and conservative activists, openly in the name of Rev. Moon, are recognized by the public.
Paul Carlson –
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"My friend Damien Anderson..."
Back when SMM and your leaders claimed that Cleopas or "Black Heung" was possessed by the spirit of Moon's dead son and this Cleopas fellow went all over the world tying members to radiators and then beating them senseless (with a baseball bat iirc), wasn't Damian the first one to actually stand up and say "stop!"? Like when Cleopas was getting ready to beat Anderson's pregnant wife he finally said "no"? Can you not understand why anyone who knows that your organization is authoritarian enough to allow that to happen, that no informed person would want your organization anywhere near the reigns of power for that alone? Do you still rationalize that away by claiming that Moon was not fully aware of what was going on? He fully approved according to Nansook. The "Messiah" was thrilled when receiving reports of the beatings she said. http://tinyurl.com/3fe9tq
The Moon movement has rationalized violence upon themselves when ordered. I know the plan now is to move on and act like your past doesn't matter but it does. How about the 700 hundred Moon followers who smashed up a newspaper and threatened the life of a reporter? http://tinyurl.com/69awsbb
Dale –
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Now, both the UC and UCI factions are competing to see --- who can do the most good!
Again, I thought SMM preferred everyone not support UCI, which you are doing. Don't you follow the living "Messiah's" commands? This was part of one Moon "proclamation". "First, all members are not to forget that they must obey absolutely all directions and commands of the True Parents, who are the only True Parents in the world for all perpetuity and eternity." Hyun Jin is head of UCI. Here's video of him smacking, punching, kicking and abusing your movement's leaders in Brazil. http://vimeo.com/12532801 Is this the "good" you were talking about? Notice that not one, NOT ONE, member lifts a finger to help these "leaders" as they were assaulted in front of them. The members just cowered as most did when Cleopas was terrorizing the membership. Hyun Jin is beating them in between readings of SMM's "Peace messages." http://vimeo.com/12532801
Dale –
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About the Cleopas incident; my impression is that UC missionaries in africa evangelized to an Zimbabwean spiritualist Cleopas. The Korean Unification church (and culture) has a long tradition of respect for spiritualists, so Cleopas has a path to acceptance. This snowballs out of control. I speculate that there was more going on than just religion; maybe the race issue was leading Cleopas to violence. To some extent this incident also reflects naive expectations on the part of the Unification church regarding inter-culture and inter-racial outreach. But at least they try.
Richard Eisenman –
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"my impression"
There's no need for you to try to get an "impression," we know what happened. The LEADERS of the UC, including the "Messiah" himself, sanctioned this man going around the world beating the members. Bo Hi Pak was sent to the hospital.
"has a long tradition of respect for spiritualists, so Cleopas has a path to acceptance." What?
Korean members like to dabble in the occult so there is some semblance of an excuse for this? They were open to allowing this man to violently beat them because the door was open to him culturally? Your LEADERS approved of this man beating the members! Like I said, your rationalizations are just sad. Your reply confirms that the UC has a culture in which members will allow themselves to beaten senseless if the LEADERS say it is OK.
"I speculate that there was more going on than just religion; maybe the race issue was leading Cleopas to violence.'
What on earth are you saying here? That since he was a black man he was prone to violence? That's disgusting. Your LEADERS approved of what he was doing. Your living breathing "messiah" approved of it.
Dale –
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"this incident also reflects naive expectations on the part of the Unification church"
What? Members have "naïve expectations"? So the member's "naïve expectations" were what lead to their LEADERS sanctioning them getting tied to radiators and beaten? Beyond the fact that this verifies that no informed person would ever support the Moon movement anywhere near the reins of power, your rationalizations of this is frightening because it is what most any member would likely do. Moon's son dies - it is the members fault. Your LEADERS approve of man going around the world beating members and the members "naive expectations" are part of the problem. Before someone chimes in here and tells us how this is old news and even though it is beyond sad and disgusting we should all just ignore it, note that the "culture" has not changed one bit. The members ALL sat and watched as Hyun Jin abused their leaders in Brazil. http://vimeo.com/12532801
It really is sad.
Dale –
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Richard, is this OK because it is part of the "culture" in Korea to spit on people? From Craig Maxim who entertained at the Moon mansions around the world.
http://tinyurl.com/829346k
My mother when she first went to be married by Moon watched as he went over and spit in the face of someone he didn't want in the room. This is in the middle of a wedding ceremony! The most degrading thing you could do, he just went over and spit in the guys face, in front of the startled brides in their white dresses, he then got angry and yelled that anyone who hadn't been in the church for at least 3 years to get out!!
The fact that the entire room didn't walk out on the spot says a lot.
Dale –
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Face it, Sun Myung Moon approves of violence and members are trained to take it. Watch Nansook as she describes how, when she went to the "Messiah" and told them about their abusive son beating her, the "messiah" and his wife told her it was her fault, she was not a good enough wife, it was her "faith" that said she had to endure the beatings. (and they claim to support "women" - what a scam.) When Moon's own daughter came to the living "messiah" and told them she was also beaten by her husband she was told she "DESERVED IT"! Watch Nasnook here: http://tinyurl.com/7s6cwyu
Dale –
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UC members like to point to the church's (it is not a movement) continuing image as a loony bin led by a megalomaniac (and his millionaire kids) and Moon's imprisonment for tax evasion as evidence of "persecution," associating Moon with historical religious figures like Jesus, Gandhi, et al, whining that he is misunderstood. The fact is that the UC is full of very good people, including Eisenmann, Carlson, Dunkley, and the others posting here (or maybe they're all one person, I don't know). I don't don't their faith or sincerity for one second. What I have problems with is when church leadership (i.e., Moon, his bad seed kids) takes advantage of other people, breaks laws, and then rationalizes its behavior by framing it in some "providential plan." Like many new American religions they talk about spirituality but spend most of their time figuring out how to make and use money. Moon is a convicted tax cheat. He's enriched himself and his kids at the expense of his followers. Whether he believes what he says about himself is immaterial. I don't have problems with church members. I do have problems when the church continues to lie about what it is and where it has come from.
Z. Hayashi –
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Sounds like Rev. Moon was pissed. We don't know the full context beyond that the person who was the object of his anger was apparently out of line. Regarding "is this OK because it is part of the "culture" in Korea to spit on people". Well, it is true that Koreans can be very volatile. I watched a Korean Parliament session once and it was mind-boggling. On the other hand the Korean murder rate is half the US one. Not exactly the same topic, but when I lived in Korea it was interesting watching the student 'demos'. The riot police are all kids doing their military service, and they are very disciplined and restrained. And some of the same kids, apparently, when they are on leave, join the demos. Kids vs kids throwing rocks and and screaming, blowing off steam. Then everything is back to normal. Almost like a ritual. And I've seen friends yelling, screaming, spitting at each other. Half an hour later, its like nothing happened. weird. And religious people get pissed too; Matthew 21:21 Jesus flipping the tables in the temple.
Richard Eisenman –
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I would invite readers, and this site's administrators, to consider whether "Frank," "Zeke," and "Dale" are in fact the same individual, posting under multiple personas.
Some of "Dale's" sharper posts, such as regarding the tragic murder of Jin-Joo Byrne, much resemble some tasteless posts made recently on an 'internal' Unificationist board, by yet another false/anonymous persona.
On the subject itself, it's a horrible reality that dozens of women are attacked each day, at home and work and school. My contention is that fundraising quickly builds up some real 'street smarts,' and helps women and men stay more safe, throughout the rest of their lives.
Paul Carlson –
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Now Paul wants NPR to investigate in hopes of intimidating the people who expose what the Moon organization is about. If the NPR host is at all interested and reads these comments, he is wondering why he let your reps mislead him. He should be starting to see more clearly how he'd been had. As for your paranoid ravings, Frank is a lot funnier than I am and if you took the time to read the comments you would see Zeke and I don't agree on everything. Both of them are clearly more connected to the group - either currently or in the past - than I. (btw, NPR has my email.)But I do understand why you would want to give reader' the impression that it just couldn't be possible three people actually took the time to help the unsuspecting readers see a smidgen of the disgusting actions from the Moon organization's history - things not mentioned by the misleading Moon reps. But, as some "Paul" below stated, I "respond so often with so many facts to back (me) up" - so why do you want NPR to investigate someone you know is telling "facts"? Even if they had 50 aliases. Your post brings to mind one question Paul. Do you wake up that paranoid or does it just build as the day goes along?
Dale –
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Dale, seems I got your attention, and Frank's too. . . .
(I happen to know Frank's real full name, and don't bother to tangle with his web very much.) . . .
I do agree Dale, you are clearly one of the few 'old line' UC opponents, busy criticizing issues that are decades old, and were barely half-true even then. . . .
What I don't get is, if you wish to be as credible as possible, then Dale, why bother with a half-or-false name? . . .
"Frank" has not been an active UC member is more than 15 years, but not so "ex" that he doesn't spend maybe half the day conversing online with current members. (In fairness, my concern about doubled names more concerned "Zeke," who's definitely a false name.) . . .
As for that whole Deceptive thing, it's mostly based upon one single quote, from the early 1970s, poorly translated and not in context. In reality, we have the early Day of Hope and Washington Monument, etc. talks, speaker Rev. MOON. The Women's Federation, founder and speaker Mrs. MOON. The newer UCI faction, leader and speaker Hyun Jin MOON. And so on, many times multiplied. Now we're handing out thousands of copies of Rev. MOON's autobiography. . . .
Got it???
Paul Carlson –
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"Dale, seems I got your attention, and Frank's too. . . . (I happen to know Frank's real full name, and don't bother to tangle with his web very much.)"
I don't understand this. You are excited because you got my attention, why? There are only a few people posting here regularly and I have replied to many of your posts already. So, why does this make you feel like you got my "attention"?
You also admit that when you were complaining about the possibility that we were all one person and wished for NPR to investigate this horror, you knew what you were saying wasn't true. You knew at the time that what you were alluding to was not true. I know you mean well but is the culture of deception in the UC just too strong to break? Thing is, it would not really matter even if we were one person; it's the information we are posting that is well documented that you apparently do not want to face.
dale –
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"As for that whole Deceptive thing, it's mostly based upon one single quote, from the early 1970s." Paul, it may make you feel better to make something like that up but certainly you know it is NOT true. I have posted about your own new leader admitting recently that you have hidden behind front group names like UPF and WFWP all along and that their REAL purpose was to promote Moon as the messiah, not what they tell people. The Moon reps on this very NPR show mislead the public when they made no effort to correct the well-meaning and grossly uninformed hosts particular when they said you went by FFWPU in the intro which is a name Hyung Jin has specifically said was one you were to quit hiding behind. The dishonesty of not setting the record straight about how you really view Jesus is just disgusting, imo. Deception in the Moon organization is not old news or just one mistranslated quote and you know it. Btw, you also know Sudo's handbook talked about using lying to reach your goals. You are even taught G-d lied to SMM.
dale –
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Paul, as for your litany of things the organization has done and the snarky "Got it?" line - you can hand out all the propaganda bios and boast about all the fronts that have pulled the plans off you wish, you will never ever change the fact that it was built using deception somewhere along the line. Tell me Paul, where in the "autobiography" does it say even one time that Moon claims to be THE "Messiah"? It's not in my copy. Did I just miss it? Hah Just show even one place where he mentions the claim that is the most important point of his life, the thing that is the reason his followers do what he tells them to do. That's just one thing left out of this piece of Moon propaganda. Why do you think SMM and those who put the book together left that out? It wouldn't be because he was trying to help the members seduce people into his web would it? How many times did the Japanese members shipped in to pass out this propaganda tell their prospective marks that the book was about the Messiah, the one who did what Jesus failed to do and the one whose son Jesus now serves in heaven. But you just keep being proud of all this. I feel sorry for you.
Dale –
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Hi Zeke,
And you current plans are . . . ?
Your use of "right wing" as a pejorative says plenty. In fact the Washington Times was honored by Pres. Reagan as a key supporter in his victory in the Cold War. Hundreds of millions of oppressed humans were liberated, and two billion was a small price to pay.
Halfway sarcastic rejoinder:
Would Karl Marx do better as our earthly God, and Lenin as his messiah? Maybe with Howard Zinn as his primary American scribe?
"Claims" of running charities? The movement supports recognized, long-successful schools and more, all over the planet.
As for "homophobia," that's a hot issue indeed. While many Korean pastors are ferocious in their rhetoric, perhaps you've forgotten that The Rev. himself had no problem working with some openly gay conservative activists, such as J Terry Dolan.
Paul Carlson –
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Hi J Terry Dolan - Your claim that "two billion was a small price to pay," is a joke if you think that rag had anything to do with the USSR's dissolution. The fact is that the WT had few readers, and indeed had to give away subscriptions to get anyone to read it, and wasted money made from the hard labor of impressionable young teenagers hawking flowers and candy on the streets. And if you think that anyone who uses "right-wing" as a pejorative automatically makes them a follower of Marx or (LOL) Howard Zinn, I suggest taking a political science class or eight. The history (and current practices) of the "movement" is that it preys on people who don't know any better. Currently it's preying on elderly Japanese members, trying to squeeze money from a population devastated from the tsunami. You should be ashamed of yourself for even being associated with it. Shame on you.
Z. Hayashi
Z. Hayashi –
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This is the part where Paul uses the WT to rally conservatives to SMM's side. As Michael Jenkins used to say, the Washington Times "protects Father." The WT did just what Moon wanted and it has played a vital role in helping Moon gain influence here and around the world. It has served, as SMM bragged, as an intelligence asset for the organization and its friends. Another time he said he created the paper for the members to use to influence America.
SMM: With the Washington Times as Fourth, it has to take preeminence in the realm of media. With the Washington Times as the core, we are establishing preeminence in the American print media, a field of more than 1,750 American newspapers. By doing so we can include all fields of intelligence. Today we have in this area surpassed the liberal New York Times and Washington Post, and continually gaining important confidential information not only from America but also from other governments all over the world. (Sun Myung Moon Founder's address Nov. 28, 1986 J. W. Marriott Hotel, Washington, D.C)
Dale –
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Here's a link http://tinyurl.com/lq7vqg to a great panel with three very conservative speakers who all worked as editors for Moon's papers. Micheal Warder was a long time member who worked directly under Moon and who quit when the organisation wanted to take his child from he and his wife to be raised by Korean nannies. James Whelan is a staunch anti-communist who worked for Scaife in California before he was recruited by Bo Hi Pak to be the first "front man" for the WT. William Cheshire used to work for Jesse Helms and Dan Quayle. No matter what the Moon followers will say to smear them, all three have impeccable conservative credentials and are highly credible. Unlike conservatives and liberals who rationalize they are not helping Moon by working with and supporting the WT, these three quit the games and showed "true principles" by standing up to the obvious.
http://tinyurl.com/lq7vqg
Dale –
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The WT's is another example of how SMM is not a capitalist or a successful businessman as he is often presented. His operation is funded from a pool of money that includes cash fleeced from the Japanese. The paper has lost billions but it was obviously never intended to make a buck. Intel and influence is its game.
How many "free market capitalist" use unpaid labor to build their money losing operations? Moon selected 200 members to help start the WT. This http://tinyurl.com/3uyqncq is written one of those 200.
http://tinyurl.com/3uyqncq
Dale –
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Hey Zeke, If you want to be in the Unification movement and be a slave, that is your choice. It is your responsibility to grow from being a slave to being an adult. Unification church members often start out in a humble position, no doubt as the marine, whom you or Dale enjoyed insulting in a previous post, did in boot camp. But the point of boot camp is not to be a slave to the military, it is actually to grow to be a responsible person. A marine who just follows orders is, ultimately, pretty useless. Now you criticize the Japanese Unification movement for where they are at (exploitative fund-raising). The character of the Japanese movement is influenced by the character of Japan; 50 years ago they were bowing to Tojo and having head chopping-off competitions in Nanking. I do not criticize the Japanese branch of the Unification movement unless it is to encourage them to grow, which I have faith they will. Why do I have faith? For one thing I am married to a Japanese woman by Rev. Moon. And my god-uncle died in WWII in Leyte fighting the Japanese. That represents something of the vision of Rev. Moon.
Richard Eisenman –
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Richard I am finding your posts to be sad attempts to rationalize. But this - whom you or Dale enjoyed insulting in a previous post
Since I am the only one who replied to him, I must say, that's a lie. Does deception always have to be involved? Please point out where I insulted him. I asked him if he did what he himself said he did which I find disgusting - not just that he did it, but disgusting that his superiors had to tell him to quit, he didn't know on his own. That's why I asked him if he still did it. I get that the Moon followers want to believe that any criticism of the group, based in fact, is persecution. It's a neat trick but it doesn't wash to the informed. I get that nothing will make you happy short of the world bowing DOWN to SMM but the fact that some people do not want that and are expressing that point is no need to lie about what they say. You went so far to say I "enjoyed" it. You have no clue what you are talking about. You are just making stuff up, one can only imagine to make yourself feel better.
Dale –
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Dale: So Sgt Harding in a post below describes his spiritual journey and tours of Iraq and your response is an apparently sarcastic:
' Do you still order the troops under your command to cry out in unison "Rev. Moon is the MESSIAH! "'
and you claim that Sgt Harding said this in 'that interview'. What are you talking about?
I think apology from you to Sgt Harding would be appropriate.
Richard Eisenman –
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RE, you know what really would be fun? You admitting you don't know what you are talking about and apologizing to me. But I do not expect that because you will rationalize some way around it. He did say it, then he talked about how after he was told to cut it out, he told his troops to check with him on the side. He knows he said it as I imagine other members on this board know also. Maybe you missed what Paul wrote below when he said that I "respond so often with so many facts to back (me) up."
Dale –
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Dale accuses Sgt Justin Harding of ordering his platoon to "cry out in unison Rev Moon is the Messiah in that interview". So I google Justin Harding: http://tinyurl.com/7x3jpjb check it out if you really want to know about Sgt Harding. And I found Justin Harding on some cable TV program: Justin relates how he introduced himself to a platoon and told them he was going to tell them something important, namely "Rev Moon is the messiah". And to emphasize that he had them 'sound off' "Rev Moon is the messiah". Understand Marine culture, "Sound Off" is the habitual way Marine Sgts communicate to platoons; you repeat the point the Sgt made and your name. Why? because inattention may result in death. "Sounding off" is NOT ordering a chant in unison and has nothing to do with agreement concerning point made. Then Sgt Harding explains that he got in trouble for doing that because you aren't supposed to push your religion. The Marines do have unison chants called marching cadences (often obscene). So I will admit Dale is partly right about this, but he is slanting and distorting the facts of the matter in his interests.
Richard Eisenman –
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Well, we knew you would dance around and rationalize to yourself a way around admitting the truth and apologizing. I found Justin Harding on some cable TV program It was on a Moon owned and operated TV show - it was your own propaganda. From your definition "sounding off" is worse than how I describe what he did. Thanks for clearing that up. Too bad you weren't man enough to just apologize.
Dale –
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OK, Dale, so your assumption is that I am part of some Unification Movement Borg so I must know "all the propaganda". I never heard of Sgt Harding until he made his post to which you replied "Do you still order your troops to cry out in unison 'Rev. Moon is the Messiah'". It sounded to me like you were being totally sarcastic. So I googled and found out about Sgt Harding. Sounds like a nice guy to me, and on that point he admitted in 'that interview' that he was out of line. My sense of Harding is that he wanted his platoon to know where he was at; in particular that he was going to be upfront that he is a religious guy. So what is your problem that you need to crow about it? By the way, I wonder how many platoon Sgts have had their platoon sound off "Jesus is Lord" in a similar context. I suppose that would be 'disgusting' to you as well?
Richard Eisenman –
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so your assumption is that I am part of some Unification Movement Borg so I must know "all the propaganda". No. That was plain when you started attacking me when you had no clue what you were talking about. It sounded to me like you were being totally sarcastic. How often do you demand an apology from someone critical when something they say "sounds" a certain way? that you need to crow about it? Haven't you distorted what I have said enough? I find the whole thing sad AND disgusting. have had their platoon sound off "Jesus is Lord" in a similar context. I suppose that would be 'disgusting' to you as well?
Very much so. Any person in authority in the military has no business proselytizing to the people under their command. Period. What's sad is they have to be told. Why is it that Moon followers so often just grasp for some person doing the same wrong as an excuse for them doing so also? Does it really satisfy? I thought you had a living breathing "messiah" to guide you? The part of your answer about how he just wanted to let them know he was a "religious guy" was just more rationalizing wrongdoing. A pattern one sadly sees with Moon followers a lot.
Dale –
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Technical note: . . . The UC is a large movement but not huge, especially in the English-speaking world. It's not hard to discover there is not, and never was, any member named "Zeke Hayashi." This is probably the same man, who's got a real flair for catchy fake names, as "Frank Frivilous." (His spelling not mine.) . . . I read in American Journalism Review that most public media forums now insist on the use of a proven real name, often plus a verified email address, even if that's not posted. . . . Meanwhile, being anonymous for no reason only serves to drop the legitimacy of those who hide behind a mask. (Also note, many vehement UC opponents do use their real names, and none of them have high fences much less bodyguards. There's no need!)
Paul Carlson –
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"legitimacy of those who hide behind a mask." You mean like how the Moon organization has done for decades as Hyung Jin castigated you for doing? You know, when he said you should all quit hiding behind the front group names like Universal Peace Federation and Womens Federation for World Peace and all the other hundreds of front names you have used to seduce the unsuspecting. Reading you complaining about people hiding behind fake names is really rich. Which brings us back the question. At the very start of the NPR Moon propaganda show, the uninformed host introduced the Moon reps as being with the FFWPU. As YOU know, Hyung Jin very specifically named Famfed as one of the names you should QUIT using to hide behind. Why didn't the Moon reps stop the host and tell him that you were going to quit deceiving people with the front names? Could it be because it's a hard habit to break?
Dale –
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OK, here we are at the center of the enlightened world, the USA, analyzing this crazy international moonie subculture with our superior intellectual skills. Of course in our USA culture we have over 2,000,000 warehoused in prison, 10's of millions on behaviour modification drugs, 10's of millions on illegal drugs and 40,000 dead on the streets of mexico to keep those drugs coming, $500,000 per family your share of the national debt, 100's of billions of taxpayer money routinely wasted (Solyndra, bailouts, etc), banks basically enslaving millions in endless manipulations because 'greed is good'. And when the "natives are restless" in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, the solution is pick one or more of: dump bombs, bags of flour or sacks of $100 dollar bills. And the moonies are going around the world telling people that the purpose of the Lord of the Second Advent is to perform inter-racial/cultural/national marriage as a way to peace. Obviously that is crazier than a smart bomb plus collateral damage from 30,000 feet.
Richard Eisenman –
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RE, Does it hurt trying to connect so much unrelated material? The world is in a mess and Moon says he's the answer so why would anyone question him? purpose of the Lord of the Second Advent is to perform inter-racial/cultural/national marriage as a way to peace. Says who? Says Moon who has no proof he speaks for G-d, none. You know I have read SMM say hundreds of times that "exchange marriage," as he calls it, is G-d's main desire. Can you tell me why then did SMM match ALL of his own children to other Koreans? I am not talking about anyone else's immediate children, just SMM's. He is such a transparent phony. Not one of his own children did he match to say, an African or an American, not one. Of course he didn't allow American district directors in the USA until 2006, so we know how little he thinks of Americans. He did put Jenkins up as a front for the overall movement in the USA but does anyone honestly think Jenkins made any important moves absent Yang's OK? Is it that SMM is just a huge hypocrite? A fraud? Or is it as many former members attest, that no matter how many people he may seduce from differing backgrounds, he believes Koreans are the master race?
Dale –
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Dale, Its an unfolding evolutionary process. I believe one of In Jin Moon's kids is now married to a non-oriental; from Finland I think. And In Jin Moon has certainly spoken on numerous occasions a desire to transcend her Korean background in certain respects. There maybe others who are married to Japanese, which to us would not seem very cross-cultural, but there is a huge gap Korean vs Japanese.
Richard Eisenman –
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Ms. Lindstrom, I regard myself as a unificationist. It was something of a relief to me to see the Moon children grow to adults with human conflicts and it clearly evident that they have responsibility to resolve those issues. And, after all, the process of resolving sibling conflict is at the center of Unification theology's interpretation of Providential history: Cain-Able, Jacob-Esau, Jesus-John the Baptist (lets not get into the theory of the virgin birth here ...). Namely if there is a resolution of the conflict, God's providence moves forward; the reconciliation of Jacob and Esau being a victory in God's providence and setting a foundation for Moses and Jesus. I understand that for many on this forum such topics in religious history are an archaic irrelevancy. Anyway, I am not expecting people on this forum to agree with Rev. Moon's approach to world problems: that the root problem is the spiritual problem. But it would be nice if the people on this forum gained some deeper realization that Rev. Moon actually believes what he believes and that this is not all some con game played by morons. I recommend Mr. Breen's book: http://tinyurl.com/7f5rs2x
Richard Eisenman –
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Richard, I am a believer too in the furthering of God's work through resolving conflicts and growing our character. I can sympathize with how hard it must be for the members to witness about unity when there is so much blatant disunity and conflict within the church right now. It must be quite embarrassing.
Anna Lindstrom –
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Einsenman - You sir are pathetic. What you have isn't faith, it's a kind of disintegrating hope that you haven't wasted your life believing in the megalomaniacal rantings of a sociopath. The story of the UC would be amusing (along the lines of daytime soap operas), if it didn't participate in the destruction of so many people's lives. It's an abusive and disgusting organization led by narcissistic millionaires who have an inflated sense of self worth. The UC makes a mockery of all religious organizations.
Z. Hayashi –
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Ms. Lindstrom,
I appreciate your concerns.
If you were a UC member for all those years, then surely you are well aware of the numerous charities worldwide, and ecumenical work, and efforts on behalf of political and religious freedom, that Unificationists have carried out, over many decades. More than ever, today.
Is there some "embarrassing" division? It's not nice, and then again. EVERY religion in history has experienced a 'succession crisis.' I wrote of this in the Unification News many years go.
Now, both the UC and UCI factions are competing to see --- who can do the most good! Educational and service programs, social and ethnic unity, and more.
Paul Carlson –
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"But it would be nice if the people on this forum gained some deeper realization that Rev. Moon actually believes what he believes and that this is not all some con game played by morons."
Richard Eisenman I have no doubt that Moon believes what he says, but this doesn't mean that the UC isn't "some con game played by morons." On the contrary, it confirms it.
Zeke Hayashi –
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Zeke, that is your opinion, and I shall respect that. I usually find that newfound theological differences have a very personal basis, and I am sorry that (probably) some unfortunate past experience has made you so bitter.
Look objectively. Unificationist marriages have, on average and carefully verified, a better than 80% success rate. Despite vastly different races and cultures coming together, this holds true for more than 50 years and counting. As Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them," and that is a wondrous fruit indeed.
Paul Carlson –
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The "ecumenical work" consists of seducing religious leaders into joining Moon's efforts to make the United Nations into theocratically run body - the creation of the Kingdom of Moon.
It's the same goal that the 70s congressional investigation revealed was the primary goal:
http://tinyurl.com/3elykcu
The apparent contradictions in many of the activities of the Moon Organization are explained by Moon's overriding religious goal--to establish a worldwide "theocracy," that is, a world order which would abolish separation of church and state and be governed by the immediate direction of God. ... The UC and numerous other religious and secular organizations headed by Sun Myung Moon constitute essentially one international organization. This organization depends heavily upon the interchangeability of its components and upon its ability to move personnel and financial assets freely across international boundaries and between businesses and nonprofit organizations.. Among the goals of the Moon Organization is the establishment of a worldwide government in which the separation of church and state would be abolished and which would be governed by Moon and his followers.
Dale –
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Now, both the UC and UCI factions are competing to see --- who can do the most good!
Paul, am I mistaken or hasn't SMM and others sent out memos stating that Kwak is Satan and has control of Hyun Jin? Hasn't your "messiah" ordered that none of you should support what Hyun Jin is doing because it is wrong and not of "TP"? In fact he is in direct disobedience? Do you support disobeying your messiah? Didn't he order everyone who worked for UCI to quit or leave the businesses? I don't get your point. Are you what they call a "cafeteria" Unificationist? Just pick and choose what part of the "messiah's" claims you want to buy into?
Dale –
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"service programs" The congressional investigation says the Moon organization uses service as a hook to eventually gain control.
http://tinyurl.com/3elykcu
Wood described Moon's technique for achieving political control and influence:
"You make yourself available to serve, and you serve that man with whatever it is. You carry out his orders. You carry out his directives until he
trusts you absolutely, whether it is political work, economic work, or social work. Then finally when your services have become indispensable, then
you begin to dictate policy. If he deviates from the policy you have set, you withdraw your support, and he is powerless. So he has no choice but to follow you.
Basically, it is 'I am going to serve you to death,' approach."
Dale –
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Dale, I suppose you are either Mr. Hassan (being deceptive!) or a colleague of his, now reiterating that 40-year laundry list of nasty accusations, recited from a memory still full of seething resentment. Very few believe that stuff now, especially that ludicrous "actual Moon rulership" line.
Since the reality has moved so far beyond that, the numbers of those "in the know" of decades-old paranoia has shrunk to a mere handful. : . .
Zeke, obviously you are paying some attention. You haven't 'moved on,' at least not far enough to fully claim a secular life you now proclaim is superior. Maybe you missed the part where no (so far as I've heard yet) UC members were lost in the tsunami, while several were miraculously rescued from the water. Also, how Hyung Jin donated a large sum for tsunami relief, while reports from the J-UC (about donation requests) are highly disputed. : : : Speaking of real lives, recall how our brother Capt. Manuel Liba rescued fourteen US Air flt 1549 passengers from the Hudson River, as the second boat on scene.
Paul Carlson –
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This reply works for what Paul says:
One thing is for sure. Since Hyung Jin admits and anyone who observes knows, your organization has used deception throughout its history to build this foundation by "hiding" behind front names. Since the foundation of the Moon movement has been built using deception - no matter what great person the followers may point to as working with them, no matter which front group they sell as working for God's will , no matter who you show off as another pelt on your belts. the conquests were made using deception somewhere along the line and you all know it. No matter what you say or do, you will never change the fact that the foundation was built through deceiving people. Hyung Jin said that all fronts have a simple purpose, to promote Moon as the Messiah. This of course makes fool or a liar out of Pres. Bush 41 for he kept telling the press that shilling for Moon's WFWP front was not shilling for Moon as the messiah. The UPF is another grand example of a Moon front that used deception. Their rep told the media and potential marks that the UPF was not run by the UC, that it had no more ties to the UC than any group. This of course is another lie.
Dale –
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while reports from the J-UC (about donation requests) are highly disputed.
What "donations"? Do you mean members in Japan being squeezed again or do you mean these "donations"?
The "$1.3 Billion from 32,283 Cases against the UC from Japanese Members" http://tinyurl.com/6jfskre or these http://tinyurl.com/3w6t6z9 or these http://tinyurl.com/4xkp8ze
Dale –
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I am sorry that (probably) some unfortunate past experience has made you so bitter
Zeke, Paul is flashing one of the more disgusting techniques I have seen other Moon followers deploy. When a former member takes the time to inform people of what they believe to be true about the Moon movement, when they take the time to educate the unsuspecting Moon targets, then they are accused as such. There is only one (probable) answer. You had a "bad" experience and now you are a "bitter" person. No one needs to pay any attention to you for you are "bitter." Doesn't matter how many facts from personal experience you may bring to the table. It is one of the techniques they have helped infuse into the USA's political system. Like the Moon funded Mr. Dolan, his claim to fame was that he is called the father of the individual political attack ad. Now there's some fruit for you! Zeke, don't pay any attention to Paul, he's just bitter that you don't bow DOWN to Moon. James Whelan was accused of being "disgruntled" when admitted the obvious about the WT. http://tinyurl.com/8x82oes
http://tinyurl.com/7ufq33w
Dale –
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"Maybe you missed the part where no (so far as I've heard yet) UC members were lost in the tsunami, while several were miraculously rescued from the water."
Hi Paul - You know, I did miss that part, and I would like to point out the obvious, that God played a role in making sure that that no UC members were lost in the tsunami, because they will be sorely needed to build the kingdom of heaven on earth (via healthy "donations" to Hyun Jin Nim, or whomever the UC's autocrat of the moment is). Okay, I'm outa here. This is enough. It's obvious to me that although you may be sincere, you (and Eisenmann et al) are seriously mentally ill. Remember that if and when you are ready there is help out there for you. You are not alone.
Z. Hayashi –
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HaHaHa! Thanks for your perceptive opinion Ms. Miller. You can now well imagine what the residents of Las Vegas are in for.
Frank Frivilous –
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Ms. Miller,
Interesting observations.
Roaming the streets of your town, looking to grab people? I think you have horse riding Unificationists mixed up with some zombie movie you saw.
Paul Carlson –
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Paul - By their fruits ye shall know them." Well put. The UC church in the U.S. was built on untaxed monies made by MFT teams and funneled into failed UC businesses run by Japanese and Korean "leaders," many of whom who were in the U.S. illegally. The story of Moon's "true children" reads like a comic book of spoiled rich brats who abused members and abused their positions, when they weren't embezzling or snorting coke, or beating their wives, or selling small arms to a gun-happy Americans.
Some fruit, eh?
yrs,
Zeke Hayashi
Z. Hayashi –
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sorry this was to be a reply for "Richard Eisenman Sep 19, 2011 02:16:19 AM"
Dale –
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Hey Dale, Let me remind you that the conversation was about whatever Korean spiritualists were reporting in their visions of the spirit world. These stories about Jesus bowing to Rev. Moon's son, (and also about Buddha bowing to Jesus mentioned), are, of course, speculative. And certainly I would take anything coming from a spirtualist with a grain of salt. But if one agrees with the idea that the Messianic mission cannot be completed by a man alone (as Jesus was) but rather requires a man and woman united, then perhaps one can understand the heart of the spiritualist who experiences a vision in which Jesus bows to Rev. & Mrs. Moon's deceased son in the spirit world. This concept of the Messianic mission is also related to the Unification concept of God not being a single guy, but rather male and female united. To some people, this is a very progressive point of view. Now about 'SMM not bowing to anyone'. Well, he certainly bows a lot to God. By the way, in Korean society its customary to bow down to the elder. SMM is pretty old, like 91. I spent a lot of time in Korea and bowed down to a lot of elders. So not so weird to me. And I have a Japanese wife. They do a lot of bowing too.
Richard Eisenman –
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Sorry for the confusion, I posted the first part of my comment in this, the wrong place.
I don't think you read this.
Dale Sep 21, 2011 22:23:43 PM
Dale –
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I'll tell you what is weird Mr. Eisenman....pretending that the revival of an Oriental Royal Court system is "progressive" and trying to impose it upon educated westerners.
Frank Frivilous –
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Hi Frank Frivilous, FYI Unificationists only bow to Rev. Moon. They do not bow to Rev. Moon and even kiss his hand if they are close enough ! , as do Catholics to the Pope. You can see pictures of Catholics bowing if you google 'catholic devil worship photos'. Not sure how 'oriental' catholics might be although some new-agers claim Jesus travelled in India! And I have great respect for the Catholics. :) - Richard E.
Richard Eisenman –
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Interesting diversion Richard. Why not explain to our audience that the members are expected to prostrate themselves completely to the entire Moon family photo on a daily basis. It is also recommended now by Moon's own son that they bow thousands of times to a golden statue of Moon for the remission of sins. Don't tell me you are a backslider?!!!!
Frank Frivilous –
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Thank you Richard for making such a correct explanations of pointed questions.
My respects
Tatiana Tsukada –
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Thanks Frank F. for acknowledging that Catholics bowing to the Pope and kissing his hand is an interesting diversion. Anyway, about golden statues, no I have not personally seen a golden statue of Rev Moon in any Unification church building, but after you mentioned it I went ahead and googled 'golden statue moon' and found a picture of a small golden statue of Rev and Mrs. Moon that is apparently on a shrine in their son Hyung Jin Moon's prayer room or office. And also a picture of Hyung Jin Moon and his wife, the leaders of the International branch of the Unification movement, bowing. I would not be surprised (or shocked) if Hyung Jin Moon had bowed 1000 times in his prayer room. You might find it interesting that Hyung Jin Moon, during his younger years, lived as a Buddhist monk and probably also bowed 1000 times to an image of Buddha, such an image being the center point of any Buddhist monastery. And perhaps you would find it interesting that repetitive physical acts of devotion are common in oriental disciplines, spiritual, or otherwise.... remember Karate Kid 1 ? That oriental despot Mr. Miyagi ordered The Kid "wax on, wax off, wax on, wax off ...." :)
Richard Eisenman –
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Richard, I don't think you saw this reply from the start of this bowing conversation. ...
Considering that these spirit messages are the backbone of your org, why are you acting like they are not to be trusted? Isn't scamming people by claiming that by paying the Moon family one can have their lineage cleaned up in the spirit world still a primary money raker? By the same people who get these messages? Why, whenever Jesus is being channeled, why is He so often made out to be this sad sack whose only wish is that He hadn't inspired His followers to be so supportive of Him instead of jumping on the SMM bandwagon? Hyung Jin said he spent a decade fretting over why his father's "love" was greater than what Jesus or anyone else taught. Why does Hyung Jin go on all the time about how SMM's "love" is better than anything Jesus came up with? Why is Jesus constantly depicted like this? Here's a typical sampling. From "Blessing and the Ideal Family" we get, "To bear children rooted in God and True Parents is more exalted than Mary's bearing the Messiah. The blessed children born of you are better than Jesus, for whom God prepared 4,000 years."
Dale –
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Dale, no I actually don't think spiritual messages are at the backbone of the Unification movement. But I am not a very 'spiritual' person and perhaps others have a different opinion. But I do think that spiritual experiences are a reality of human experience existing in a continuum including dreams, visions and even what is commonly called 'intuition'. My thinking on this point is perhaps in the spirit of Carl Jung and William James. Even in science, for example, the chemist Friedrich Kekulé discovered the shape of the benzene molecule after a vision of a snake seizing its own tail. I don't think any credence can be given to a spiritual message unless there is some give and take with the heart and intellect. And the test for truth is not 'literal truth'. I am no fundamentalist; I am willing to accept much religious discourse as a sort of poetry.
Richard Eisenman –
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Times are rough and public radio has to survive somehow.
frank frivilous –
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pfnolan...take the logic and your choice adjectives and replace Hassan's name with SM Moon's and you will have a mirror image! Thank you!
Frank Frivilous –
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Hello Dale,
Please step back and take a few deep breaths. How well do you comprehend the abysmal state of humankind - that is if you care? Add to that the tens of thousands of years in which unimaginable acts of hatred have been perpetrated against God. For those who believe in the concept of the Messiah as God's ultimate problem solver , one would have to believe that even with God himself having your back, you have one heck of a job. Most people have a challenging time keeping their life and a family together, let alone relating to someone with such a difficult responsibility and unique personality. Like him or not, we will most certainly have a challenging time dealing with his ways. He will do and say things which are not even remotely understood. Ponder the potential for misunderstanding and what could result& then breathe and breathe again.
Rob –
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Hey Rob are you kicking it with your personal friend Sun Moon and Hak Ja in Vegas? Shooting craps, playing Black Jack, hit a few slots then go see a show? I am so glad that Moon has finally found his element in Las Vegas but I wonder what he intends to do with his billion dollar palace in Chump Pyung Lake, S. Korea? Oh well, if the "spiritual" sales fall off he can always turn it into a casino.
Frank Frivilous –
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Do you still order the troops under your command to cry out in unison "Rev. Moon is the MESSIAH!" as you said you did in that interview?
That is disgusting.
Dale –
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Sorry Conan but by your own admission you are stupid and uncivil. The DP probably never originated with Moon and is in the process of being revised right now by his own children let alone qualified theologians. Hassan never actually ragged on anyone's "fallen nature" except for Moon's. Advertising your political affiliation isn't helping your case either.
Frank Frivilous –
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Well later in life Einstein is quoted as saying there is no personal god aka one that cares about us as individuals. So if there is no personal god, then what's the point of church / organized religion? It's still a liability to be an Atheist. If you are running for US President, declaring yourself an Atheist is doom.
So many people fear death and want there to be an afterlife - religions "bank" on this.
aunty palin –
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Hey "Dale," if you are still reading the comments posted here, would you please tell us if you are really Steve Hassan in disguise? Thank you.
John –
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Thanks little brother! Your comment touches some cords deep in my heart! Represent!
And here we have the example of Demian Dunkley and yourself who were given "freedom of mind" in the way Steve Hassan is asking, and you chose True Parents!!! You proved the point!!!
Thank you...
Bea Clyburn –
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Oh God save us from your representatives! George MacDonald, why couldn't you just join the Peace Corp. in order to make a difference in the world? Please get your head out of your ass and smell the coffee! Moon doesn't love you or anyone else for christsakes! What matters to him is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Frank Frivilous –
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you really are trying to prove your point. are you getting paid or something?
cant you see you're the only one on this page that is attacking.
I <3 tp
anonymous –
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If that's what your opinion is, we respect it. Just think whatever you wan't to think. We are very happy and satisfied to our faith, to what Rev.Moon (our TRUE PARENTS) have taught us. We were once confused like you and now we found the right path. Just keep on seeking. Goodluck.
Anonymous –
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No, not laughing all the way to the bank at all. Honestly, I'm just sitting here having breakfast with my family.
Demian –
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Father Moons words are public and published. All the hangers on have paid the price to keep those words from being destroyed by Father Moons "critics". Steve was obviously annoyed that he had an objective host to moderate his histarics.
andy –
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"David Becker was admirably neutral."
He may have been neutral but his show was not. It was propaganda. They let the Moon reps pass on deceptions like they are Christian and he helped them do it because like most media types he wasn't prepared for the interview. Then he had two Moon reps to one critic and the critic was given less than 1/3 of the time. When Moon followers start telling you that you were fair as many do here, you know you didn't know what you were doing.
Dale –
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auntie palin, you mean you agree with the "Unificationists", right? "Moonie" is a pejorative word used by bigots the same way "kike" is used by Jew-haters and the "N" word is used by those silly fellas in the white sheets towards African-Americans.
Lara N –
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I like your comment :)
Lenka Lipkova –
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Judge not, lest ye be judged....so says the good Book. A critic is their own worst enemy. Without love, we be but clanging bells. It never is about money, power, ego-building.....it is always about harmony, love and peace. Some will never absorb this until the great Truth of spiritual world absorbs them. May your days be full of promise that the Truth sets you free! God bless you all...
Linda Haibara –
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Worked for thirty years in Ecumenical outreach for Moon and company and currently underemployed in Kiosk sales. Willing to relocate to Vegas to serve God's providence in any capacity...dealer, bar-tending, masseuse. Heck, I'll even stand in the hot sun handing out Moon's best seller if it comes with room and board. Shoot me an email or leave a message on my Mom's phone....
Frank Frivilous –
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Jane, do you know which of Moon's kids Ron is referring to here? Apparently he didn't get the memo.
http://tinyurl.com/2qfxjj
Narrator: X-Moon follower Ron Paquette says he spoke to Moon's son about brainwashing.
Ron Paquette: And I said, "In many ways it reminds me sometimes of like the communist camps." And at that point he said "Yea I know, Father learned that when he was in the prison camp." And I kept trying to make the point that, "No, No, the way we bring in people and the way we control people is kind of like the way that this goes on in North Korean prison camps." And he kept saying, "I know."
Dale –
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Kit.....you have quite a sense of humor....you actually meant starting with Moon's own family didn't you?
Frank Frivilous –
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....and the leaders you are refering to are those of the UC Mike?
frank frivilous –
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Oh that is genious Johann. If they decided to make Vegas family friendly what would they do with all the "adult" type activities that are the mainstay of Vegas's economy?
Frank Frivilous –
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Really? I thought that only happen in Japan... You are lucky that your mum made the correct choice... Some sisters are being raped in the process of 'deprogram' as they know purity is at the essence of our teachings!! May God bless u and your family abundantly for the victory!!
Tiffany Bick –
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Tiffany, I don't know how old you are but I assume you understand that rape is against the law, even in Japan. Why not do a little research and come up with some articles to support your statement? I hope that truthfulness is also a virtue in your teachings.
Frank Frivilous –
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Regarding deprogramming in japan: Korea TV with subtitles
http://vimeo.com/16325762
By the way, not on this topic but relevant to another comment, this TV program does show a gold statue of Rev and Mrs. Moon in a church temple in Korea that it looks like people are bowing to. But also a picture of Jesus and an image of Buddha as well as a picture symbolizing the Islamic faith in that same temple. And people are bowing to that as well.
Richard Eisenman –
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Thanks Sholina. If people go to the official church website familyfed.org they will see some of the things members are doing now. They will also see the names of Rev. and Mrs. Moon featured at the top of the page.
Steve Dufour –
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I was also impressed by the fairness of NPR's interview with Rev. In Jin.
Steve Dufour –
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Uh....there's a BIG difference between Rev. Moon and Heavenly "Father" (or Heavenly "Mother" would be equally accurate). One is human, just like Jesus was, and the other one is, like, ya know....GOD! (Or G.eneral O.rganizational D.irector, Allah, Jehovah, etc...but not Bruce. Jim Carrey made that one pretty clear. And He/She's not Morgan Freeman, either, although he's pretty cool, even if he isn't as cool as Rev. Moon.)
Lara N –
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I would like to say thanks again to KNPR. I thought they did a fabulous job of hosting us, as well as giving Steve Hassan some time to air his grievances. The great irony is that we actually agree, don't we? Don't we all agree that we need to make up our own minds based upon our own inquiry and prayer? That's what I did, along with every other UC member that I know, btw.
Demian –
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Lara, I apologize. I quoted the video wrong.
Promotional Moon org video subtitles from the Congratulatory Banquet for True Parent's Birthday - Sun Myung Moon's 90th birthday:
"A new era of heaven and earth is opening up substantially before your eyes in which there is no need to distinguish between the visible True Parents through whom God works and the invisible God."
Same thing. The Moon org now teaches that G-d will take the form of Moon and his wife/TP in Heaven now.
Dale –
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Ummm... Rev. Moon is not considered God by anyone I know, and I've listened and applied his teaching for more than 15 years. Also, there's a simple reason I wouldn't just blurt out the, quite simply, most important piece of information you may ever hear. Like a doctor that may take a few minutes to get a handle on a patient before he tells them they have a serious illness, I would take time to prepare and understand someone before I tell them. It's simply a matter of tact, not deception. There's also no 'handbook' or 'orders' on how to share this. It comes from the heart and everyone is different. To judge an entire faith and a reverent man because of a few bad experiences would be a great sadness. Can you imagine judging a whole country because you met some people from there that you didn't understand? More importantly, words may not always convey the entire message. Actions do a better job.
Johann Schuster –
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Dale, I was listening very closely to the Unification Church spokesman's response to the question, "Is Rev. Moon the messiah?" The first word of the reply was, "Absolutely!". To that I say, "Amen!"
Thirty-three years ago, when I was 23, I prayed seriously many times for God to show me WHEN His kingdom would come, and WHERE, and WHO would be the king. I found the answers to those prayers in Rev. Moon's Divine Principle.
I recently studied the Divine Principle again, and was amazed that it shows God working so exactly and precisely through previously unknown principles to guide humanity back to His bosom. This work actually integrates science and religion. When this becomes widely understood, there will be a revolution of true love that will bring in God's kingdom.
Robert Becker –
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Kyungsun, thanks for being honest. Your organization IS out to control the world and you are well on your way so Vegas better get on board.
Only one small quibble: "one family under G-d" is grossly misleading. Cotter and others are putting out the word, from now on you must follow and take your understanding of Moon's intentions from his kids as they carry on the family business. Especially after Moon dies you will go from doing and believing anything Moon says to doing and believing anything his kids tell you. All those claims about not working to set up a Moon Royal family weren't true, were they? The accurate description would be "One World Under the Moon Family" or "One Family under Moon's Kids".
Dale –
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Hi, Dale.Your comments a little shoking to me. I met UC missionaries in Russia in 1994, was Blessed in 1995. Living now in Japan with my husband and 3 small kids. Non of us made our choice of joining UC out of our lack of thinking well. If Our True Father is realy the Lord of The Second Advent, his children just should take responsibility of leading a prosess of building a Heavenly Kingdom on Eath after their Father.In a practical sence "Moon's kids" did suffer a lot, they know and understand our problems very well, they have a vision and clear understanding of "how the things should be". They are leading the way out in our personal lives as well as leading some public organisations. It's not about controling one another. They have a quality of Heart and of Mind and of Character to be in a leading position. And we willing to listen them for that and support their work because of we do care for each other. So let them be who they are, let them show how much they can do for the world and for each of us, if we are willing to appreciate their hard work.
Tsukada Tatiana –
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Yeah, Acts is a good verse to quote, I like that one, too :)
Lara N. –
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Thanks Marcus. I think that is Acts 5:34
Richard Eisenman –
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"Christ was also not a Christian and he did not read the Bible."
So?
This is 2000 years later and there IS a Bible and CHRISTIANS use it to teach their kids, not as a lesson in how to use it to seduce others but to learn about Him.
Dale –
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So, Dale, Buddy,
You're an authority on Jesus and Christians?
Y'know He was a nice Jewish boy, right?
And you know how a great many Christians who...how did you put it..."use it (the Bible) to teach their kids, not as a lesson in how to use it to seduce others but to learn about Him."....that throughout history, those Bible-loving Christians who've supposedly used the Bible to learn about Jesus, then also persecuted the Jews? And I'm not just talking about WWII and the Holocaust, but the persecution and genocide of Jews throughout Europe in history?...I think those Christians need to study a little harder about who Jesus is and how He expects them to act towards others, particularly people they consider to be 'enemies'. Does "Love your enemy" ring a bell?....Peace out, bro!
Lara N. –
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Lara dear, what is the purpose of your response? Just to slam Christians? Make me feel guilty so I will see how the UC is JUST like the Jews being persecuted?
What is the purpose?
You have a living breathing "messiah" as the Moon kids now in control of telling you the latest revelations tell you over and over&SMM has been here for all the lying and swindling and Cleopas beatings(there's a family value for you!), he was there to tell Nansook she wasn't a good enough wife when she went for help when the "messiah's" son beat her when she was pregnant, he was there as Mrs. Messiah told Nansook how smuggle cash into the USA, he was there when his son consummated his "marriage" to Nansook when she was only 15 and should have been charged with statutory rape. He was guiding the organization when it helped prop up the torturing dictators in South American like Stroessner. Ask Dr. Martin Alamada what he thinks of Moon's "family values." http://tinyurl.com/7gk3ogu
Dale –
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Are you going to advise the host to correct his notes? Didn't he say your organization went by the Family Federation(FFWPU)? But Hyung Jin put out the order that you are to no longer to HIDE behind the front group names like the organization has the last 50 years. He said all the names UPF, WFWP all of them and he specifically said you should no longer use FFWPU. How come you still do use front group names? Why does In Jin HIDE behind the name "Lovin Life Ministries"?
Dale –
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While the Moon reps were basking in the claims of being Christian, why didn't they mention that the UC teaches that Jesus failed and now serves Moon's dead son in the afterlife? Or that the movement teaches that Moon is G-d incarnate and speaks for G-d? Or as Hyung Jin says, that Moon's "love" is much much greater than anything Jesus came up with? Recently Moon said there was no need for anyone to waist time trying to discern a differences between himself and "Heavenly Father." Why do you think they held back what the movement really believes?
You don't think they were trying to deceive the listeners, do you?
Dale –
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What's in a name, Steve? I mean, Dale? Or is it Steve Hassan?
Rex Murphy –
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How about Googling: bigot and prejudice? And by the way, it's UNIFICATIONISTS, not "moonies".
Sincerely,
a "kike" "moonie"
or to non-bigots, I'm known as a
Jewish Unificationist
Oh yes, try googling Nazi and dehumanization and Hitler (he did the same smear job on the Jews to get people to go along with gassing 6mil of us.)
Thanks for paving the way for history to repeat itself!
Lara N –
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So, what do you think of the fact that one of the main sources of cash for the Moon organization is swindling widows?
What did you think when Nansook wrote about how she went to Mrs. & Ms. Messiah Moon and told them her husband and their son beat her when she was pregnant? What did you think when the Messiahs told her it was her fault? Or when their own daughter came to them with the same problem she was told it was her fault also. Is that a Moon family value?
http://tinyurl.com/3fe9tq
Dale –
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Dear Dale, there is absolutely no doubt that you are Steve Hassan. If you were one who just happened to listen to this interview and just decided to comment, that would be one thing. But you are all over this comment wall posting point for point negative responses to counter every positive response. Only someone like a Steve Hassan would so vehemently respond so often with so many facts to back him up. Definitely agenda driven and not just casual or even reactionary comments. NIce try Brother:D
Paul –
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Dear Dale, there is absolutely no doubt that you are Steve Hassan.
There is "absolutely no doubt" in your mind? That's funny. Does it make you feel better to think that? Just itching to write off anything I say? I could post a thousand times that I am not him but since you have "absolutely no doubt" I doubt you would change your mind even if you saw me typing this. How long did it take you to accept the 7 deaths? Bout a half second?
Dale –
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Dale - In what sense Jesus succeeded and/or failed is a serious question that has been debated in theological and other circles for a long time, by christians and others. If Jesus entirely succeeded 2000 years ago, why would christians believe in a second coming and why aren't we living in the Heavenly kingdom already?
You may think Rev. Moon is crazy to be concerned about things like whether or not Jesus should have married, and also about what is happening in the 'spirit world' including Mohammed, Buddha, etc, but the fact is that these 'dead people', like Jesus, have a real impact on people who are alive now. Influenced by inspiration from 'the spirit' of a celibate Jesus, Catholic Priests take their vows of celibacy. Whether or not one takes this to be the literal agency of a spirit or an inspiration in ones mind is of little matter. After all, whatever you are and do starts in your mind and heart.
I sense that you may be influenced by a materialism which is dismissive of anyone who finds inspiration from spiritual concerns. But, actually most people in the world do not share the narrow-minded rationalism of western intellectuals.
Richard Eisenman –
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"I sense that you may be influenced by a materialism which is dismissive of anyone who finds inspiration from spiritual concerns. But, actually most people in the world do not share the narrow-minded rationalism of western intellectuals."
Not as easy targets, eh?
No one's and good till they bow to Moon right? I find you arrogant and puffed up, how's that?.
I love it when Moon followers try to analyze anyone critical who they have not met and have no idea who they are. But if it helps you rationalize, go for it. Nice reply though you should have thrown in Moon's favorite parlor trick, you know where when stuck by things like Jesus saying not to fall for people who claim to be the messiah, they should "pray they have a dream." I have studied lucid dreaming and anyone who meditates on a subject long enough they will have dream on the subject. I have done it. The trick is to hope the target takes anything they dream as a "spiritual" experience.
I find the whole Jesus and Muhammad(PBUH) bowing down before SMM, a man who has funded his org by swindling widows and exploiting his members(yes, I know you "choose" to let him tell you what to do) to be abhorrent,I must admit.
Dale –
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I am a Unificationist and I also believe in Jesus, but my belief in Jesus is different than other Christians. But I believe there are thousands of different interpretations of the Bible. Right? And different interpretations of Jesus' mission and life. I am not insulted when someone says we are not Christian but I think that is up to Jesus to decide.
I don't think anyone has a monopoly on the "Christian" market. Many "Christians" have 'strange' beliefs as seen by others, wouldn't you say so?
Marilyn –
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"I find the whole Jesus and Muhammad(PBUH) bowing down before SMM ... abbhorent ..." A little backround: SMM is from Korea and Korea has a strong indigenous shamanic tradition. Most Korean shamans, are women and they cultivate spiritual practices likely inclusive of what you refer to as 'lucid dreaming'. Visions of goings-on in the 'spirit world' are often experienced by these mudangs, a number of whom are active in the Unification Church in Korea, and these visions have made their way into the Unification church 'canon'. Now, you can dismiss their visions as nonsense, but beware of ones prejudices: after all, the 'transcendent' and 'messanic' visions of Van Gough are spoken of in tones of hushed and unquestioned reverance throughout the sacred corridors of enlightened liberal academia. More important is what such visions might mean. After all, we have another vision of Muhammad(PBUH) and willing virgins in heaven, adopted by suicide bombers. That vision is NOT one in which Muhammad(PBUH) and Christ and Buddah and Rev Moon's deceased son are in Heaven serving and bowing to each other as brothers. Wouldn't it be a good idea if there was a better and different vision of heaven?
Richard Eisenman –
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"That vision is NOT one in which Muhammad(PBUH) and Christ and Buddah and Rev Moon's deceased son are in Heaven serving and bowing to each other as brothers."
Gosh, you rationalize a lot, don't you? Does wiggling around that much hurt?
Note. Hyung Jin wasn't remotely talking about SMM bowing to anything. It's Jesus and Muhammad(PBUH) doing the bowing before SMM. It's Jesus who is doing the "serving." Nansook detailed how Jesus was now below Moon's dead son. It's disgusting.
Dale –
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Dale - I am not a big student of reports by mediums regarding events in the spirit world. But I did find on my bookshelf one report by a spiritualist of Buddha bowing to 'Jesus and Christians'. Bowing in oriental culture is a pretty common way of showing respect. Its also not necessarily one-way. In the Bible Jacob bows to Esau and Joseph to his brothers... and Joseph had a dream where his descendants bowed to him ? If a medium reported that Jesus had bowed to Rev. Moon's son in the spirit world it would be an expression of respect. Unification belief is that Jesus appeared to Rev. Moon at age 15 and asked him to complete his mission; the completion of which involved marrying a 'Mrs. Jesus' and establishing a messiah-ship of 'True Parents'. If Jesus approved of Rev. Moon's efforts in this regard, then its conceivable that he might bow to him or to a member of his family ... Of course we are talking about spirits, so who really knows until one goes to the spirit world ! I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is 'disgusting'.
Richard Eisenman –
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Mr. Eisenman, thank you kindly for your matter-of-factly elucidation of the many topics discussed. I particularly liked the one about 'bowing'. :)
God bless you and your family!
Rex Murphy –
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try again
Let me put it to you this way. SMM isn't bowing to anyone or thing. I think you know the bigger point of this but you are going to act like it isn't there. It isn't just the bowing down before SMM, which is not as you couch it and you know it, and yes, that is disgusting. It's the constant, and I mean constant, drum beat of how Jesus is subpar to SMM. I know you are putting on new face, the re-branding efforts, but it's still a very common theme in your movement. A lot of people have claimed to be the messiah over the years, but none that claim credibility, that I know of, spend so much time trying to convince their followers Jesus is far less of a "messiah" than they are. Moon's son dies and he becomes the "new Messiah" and Jesus is now the "old Messiah." Moon's son is the new Commander in heaven. Jesus serves Moon's son.
dale –
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Considering that these spirit messages are the backbone of your org, why are you acting like they are not to be trusted? Isn't scamming people by claiming by paying the Moon family they can have their lineage cleaned up in the spirit world still a primary money raker? By the same people who get these messages? Why, whenever Jesus is being channeled, why is He so often made out to be this sad sack whose only wish is that He hadn't inspired His followers to be so supportive of Him instead of jumping on the SMM bandwagon? Hyung Jin said he spent a decade fretting over why his father's "love" was greater than what Jesus or anyone else taught. Why does Hyung Jin go on all the time about how SMM's "love" is better than anything Jesus came up with? I want to know why Jesus is constantly depicted like this. Here's a typical sampling. From "Blessing and the Ideal Family" we get, "To bear children rooted in God and True Parents is more exalted than Mary's bearing the Messiah. The blessed children born of you are better than Jesus, for whom God prepared 4,000 years."
Dale –
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Dale, Rev. Moon is talking about the logic of love and the idea is this: it is 'exhalting' to our ultimate parent, God, when his child is born. And it is even MORE exhalting when his grandchild is born. And even MORE exhalting when his great grandchild is born, etc, etc, ad infinitum. In the logic of love, Parents wish to give everything to their child and are not diminished by their child surpassing them. This is in contrast to the logic of worldly 'satanic' love in which if I were to give something to you, I would be diminished and you would increase. This idea of a true and sacrificial love isn't just some crazy idea of Rev. Moon, it pervades the Bible. By the way, consider the Unification view of John the Baptist; that he succumbed the worldly view with: He must increase, but I must decrease.
Richard Eisenman –
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What is your source for this statement? There must be thousands of internet pages (and quite a few books) on if Einstein believed in god. Quite a few quote him as not having believed in a "personal god."
aunty palin –
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Isn't one of Einstein's more famous quotes: "God does not play dice with the universe"?
Lara N –
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He also said his main interest was to understand God's mind in creating the Universe, or something like that.
Steve Dufour –
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You are still here dear John. You never left. You are home.
Linda Haibara –
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All of the major religions were started in a time when science was very weak. I think the general level of science education is decreasing in the US so it makes sense (to me) that religious fevor is also increasing here. I will be curious to see if Christianity increases or decreases in S. Korea. And yes, I am an Athiest.
aunty palin –
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Unfortunately our "Freedom of Religion" gets replayed quite often with "Feedom from Religion!"
Ricky –
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Why does the UC mix up being exposed for lawbreaking and the use of deception with being persecuted?
Dale –
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A) we're not lobotomized
B) Yeah, some "palace" and some "retirement", seeing as how he'll have to share with all the hundreds (thousands at times) of people who tromp thru it on a daily basis - seeing how it's a MUSEUM and CONFERENCE CENTER!! And the living quarters for him and his family are pretty small compared to the rest of it that's open to the public (Unificationists who helped pay for it voluntarily)!
As for the NY property - same thing - Unificationists tromping thru all the time.
We're all family and make good use of the open door policy to Unificationists. Every time Rev. Moon is in town, we flock there in droves. I'm sure that's very relaxing for him and his family.
Lara N –
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I have had dreams and visions of Rev Mrs. Moon and of Jesus that lead me to believe that they are all on the same page of building the Kingdom of Heaven. God uses Jesus in visions and dreams and also the True Parents.
Kit –
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The U.C. reps have made a pitch to the public that they intend to bring money into the Vegas community but neglected to say how they intend to change the essential character of the place which was put on the map by Organized crime. It isn't like the host didn't give them enough time to make their case either. I wish they would have given Hassan more time to explain Moon's shady history.
Frank Frivilous –
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You mean "Unificationists", right?
Otherwise you probably call Jews "kikes" and African-Americans by the "N" word!
Lara N –
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Nope, I meant "Moonie" - I'm not playing along with the Moonie PR effort to legitimize the cult.
aunty palin –
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Realize that the term moonie is not how we wish to be called. We find it relatively offensive as it is basically an attempt to trivialize a great faith. Continuing to do so is an act of bigotry. You are notified that this is offensive, by someone who utilizes this faith system, so please show respect, even if you do not feel it in your heart. We certainly don't put down other thought systems, be they religions or non-religions, and we'd expect the same civilty.
Johann Schuster –
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Wow, the Moonie grapevine sure has called out the devoted...I find it hilariously arrogant that you MOONIES think you have been "persecuted" to the tragic extent of the Jewish or African People.
I will certainly agree that you are victims - victims of your delusional idolatry of a false, shallow, profiteering so called prophet. SHOW ME THE MONEY!
aunty palin –
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Uh....it's not likely that UNIFICATIONISTS and LATTER DAY SAINTS would fight, as for the most part, both groups are non-violent. Speaking as a "Kike Moonie" or, to the non-bigoted, A Jewish Unificationist, I've met lots of Latter Day Saints and they're really nice people. Same with Jehovah's Witnesses.
Lara N –
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Actually we American Unificationists mostly look up to the Mormons as elder brothers. That would make another good interview topic.
Steve Dufour –
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aunty, don't pay any attention, they are all about convincing people that Moon and friends are "persecuted" in a Holocaust like the Jews. seems they don't want to be called moonies because it reminds people of who they are. Most potential marks don't know what the FFWPU is.
Read this about the word "moonie"
http://tinyurl.com/7hcaaj9
Dale –
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I just finished reading Pat's autobiography. Yes he would be an outstanding interviewee.
Steve Dufour –
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I happen to be an accountant (as well as a Unificationist) so I can answer your question. A business corporation pays taxes on its profits (usually 35%) regardless of its owners. Non-profit stockholders (and lower income ones) do not normally pay income taxes on the dividends they receive. Of course the Later Day Saints own a lot more property in Nevada than the Unificationists.
Steve Dufour –
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LOL! But actually, it's standard for the most part that there's a great deal of preparation one goes thru beforehand in the Unification Church, to make sure you're ready to handle the commitment of marriage. Lotta workshops and seminars and reflection needed, while a typical "Las Vegas Wedding" is pretty much a spur-of-the-moment type thing, usually while under the influence of recreational drugs.
Lara N –
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There are some happy "Las Vegas marriages." :-)
James Schwarz –
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Steve - The UC was and is a lot more underhanded than the Mormons ever were, financially speaking. As an accountant and a member of the Artesia MFT I'm sure you can guesstimate just how much money was raised for and funneled to UC businesses by well-conned teenagers and never taxed.
Z. Hayashi –
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From Nansook's "In the Shadow of the Moons": There was no question inside the church that the Reverend Moon used his religious tax exemption as a tool for financial gain in the business world. &
No matter what the lawyers said in court, no one internally disputed that the Reverend Moon commingled church and business funds. No one had any problem with it. How often had I heard church advisers discuss funneling church funds into his business enterprises and political causes because his religious, business, and political goals are the same: world dominance for the Unification Church. It was U.S. tax laws that were wrong, not Sun Myung Moon. Man's law was secondary to the Messiah's mission.
The Reverend Moon's philosophy sounded benign enough: "The world is fast becoming one global village. The survival and prosperity of all are dependent on a spirit of cooperation. The human race must recognize itself as one family of man." What his civil libertarian allies outside the Unification Church failed to realize was that Sun Myung Moon, and only Sun Myung Moon, was the head of that family.
Dale –
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